Crazy reasonings about turtle diagrams

[Icy Mountain]

Originally Posted by russa2

But keep in mind that they only make money because Americans buy them...

Incorrect. When I was at the Marysville, Ohio, Honda plant we manufactured the limited Eagle Edition Accord Coupe. It was a two-door with the steering wheel on the right side, all of the options, and leather seats. Every single one was exported to Japan and sold for far in excess of a regular fully-loaded two-door Accord.

Originally Posted by Randy

Apparently you haven't been in any of the states that have Honda and Toyota plants.........If you ever make it to one you might be surprised when you see that the workers have not been imported from Japan. We now need to get back to Turtle Diagrams.

I never saw a turtle diagram while I was in Marysville. The OP's observation is hilarious. I'm going to use that in my next process map update/training session.

[DanteCaspian]

I gave those diagrams and honest try, on the advice of an external audit coach... they took too long to do for us (just our culture I assumed), and we found faster and better ways of getting the results we needed.

[qasolar]

Originally Posted by DanteCaspian

I gave those diagrams and honest try, on the advice of an external audit coach... they took too long to do for us (just our culture I assumed), and we found faster and better ways of getting the results we needed.

So Dante, What did you do instead? What worked for you?
Thanks,

[Randy Stewart]

we found faster and better ways of getting the results we needed.

This is a great point. You can say what you will about the turtle, it may not work for you but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

When I was in the Ford prototype ops we had started a new branch of operations. They started to combine the laser scan, CMM, etc into the prototype operation. You could produce the fixtures and body panels at about the same time. Plus we started rolling in the mock ups also (models to see how the interior fits together).
One of our biggest problems was getting the next op the proper inputs. A large amount of data was produced but no one really knew what the next op needed.
By sitting down with the departments and using the turtle diagram, we could map and document the desired inputs and outputs. Not just to the next op but the data maybe used 3 ops down the line.
Say Op10 produces data A, B, C, D; Op20 needs data A, C, D and discards the B data. But, Op 40 needed the B data and now has to re-produce it in order to complete their function.
We moved on to Value Stream mapping etc. but the turtle opened the door and a lot of eyes. It turned out to be a great starting point.

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by FCAB2006

Hello members!

Actually this is my first reply in this forum, since I became a member in 2006
. Also I am a swedish guy and therefore I would like to forewarn about bad grammatics in this post

Anyway I am very interessted of these Turtles (and also Octopus) since I worked as a consultant at Delphi Automotive Systems near Volvo Torslanda plant, in Gothenburg Sweden. But also I problem to understand the benefit of using them, so;

1. Which requrements according to ISO9001 / ISO/TS16949 can be "handled" by a turtle?

2. Which economical aspects is connected to Turtles?

Greetings
Daniel Johansson

In my opinion, forget the Octopus diagram, it does not make any sense (at least not the way Plexus tried to it to us). However, I find a modified Turtle Diagram to be useful in helping inexperienced people to dissect and understand each process. It is not used to meet requirements of the standard, it helps to define the processes you defined (see cl 4.1). It is not a required format, just some folks find it useful. Note, the sophisticated quality engineers may not like it, but you may find the less experienced people in your organization find it makes the processes more clear.

[AndyN]

Originally Posted by Helmut Jilling

In my opinion, forget the Octopus diagram, it does not make any sense (at least not the way Plexus tried to it to us). However, I find a modified Turtle Diagram to be useful in helping inexperienced people to dissect and understand each process. It is not used to meet requirements of the standard, it helps to define the processes you defined (see cl 4.1). It is not a required format, just some folks find it useful. Note, the sophisticated quality engineers may not like it, but you may find the less experienced people in your organization find it makes the processes more clear.

2009 is the year of the Turtle! Well, for me it is. I agree with Helmut. In lieu of anything else, it's a good place to start (but not to finish).

The octopus is a joke! The story behind its application is a joke (about a dealership, which can't really be TS certified!). I still don't like turtles tho - nasty ugly things.

[russa2]

No offense but Turtles and Octopuses are both "jokes." On a non-union production floor where you are being pushed on a daily basis by a tier 1 auto company you do not have the many, many hours to train people how to read either of these "tools." There is no such thing as classroom time to most auto suppliers, and turtles and octopuses make zero sense to a guy/girl with a high school diploma or less, which is what most of us are dealing with. Both "tools" are simply a way for someone on a quality council somewhere to prove how "smart" they are, and neither "tool" does anything to increase efficiency or profitability of a company.

[Stijloor]

Originally Posted by russa2

No offense but Turtles and Octopuses are both "jokes." On a non-union production floor where you are being pushed on a daily basis by a tier 1 auto company you do not have the many, many hours to train people how to read either of these "tools." There is no such thing as classroom time to most auto suppliers, and turtles and octopuses make zero sense to a guy/girl with a high school diploma or less, which is what most of us are dealing with. Both "tools" are simply a way for someone on a quality council somewhere to prove how "smart" they are, and neither "tool" does anything to increase efficiency or profitability of a company.

You seemed to have studied these tools quite extensively and have some obvious concerns. However, for the benefit of our Members here at The Cove Forums, what would you suggest as an alternative to these tools?

Stijloor.