When is nonconforming product NOT nonconforming?

When is nonconforming product NOT nonconforming?

Here is the background information:
My company delivered an aerospace product that my customer considers nonconforming. Why do they consider it as such? Because it doesn't match the requirements on the drawing. Why doesn't it match? Because the drawing is incorrect.

The part in question is a mil-circular connector that has crimp contacts. My customer has on their drawing to solder them. This does not make sense becase 1) The connector manufacture recommends crimping them. 2) This product is similar to another product we deliver to the same customer. Soldering was NOT called out for that product which uses the same connector. In fact, the new product uses 75% of the other products drawings to build it.

So is the product nonconforming?
I called the customer and they acknowledged that the drawing was incorrect and the contact should be crimped not soldered. Because I do not have a formal deviation form to wave at somebody else there, the product is considered nonconforming.

So is the product nonconforming?
I say no as it conformed with the connector manufacture's requirements, and it was built with association to the other product not requiring solder. I am also invoking ISO9001 / AS9100 Clause 7.2.1 b) 'requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or intended use, where known.'

So is the product nonconforming?
No. The product was not nonconforming, the drawning was.

My customer threw a corrective action request at me for not following their 'do not ship nonconforming product without a deviation' requirement. Can I throw at them that they did not follow proper design review procedures as required by AS9100?? (Let's just all throw spec requirements around while the root cause of the problem goes unresolved.)

If this ever happens again, the product will NOT be shipped. It just ticks me off that I have to show tough-love to the customer by holding product while they sit on drawing changes for 3 months.

Actually going through this may be to your advantage in the future when as you say you have to hold a shipment...when they get upset you simply refer them back to this very issue...

It's unfortunate that sometimes the "tough love" approach is the only one that works...Ultimately (hopefully) it will lead to better communication in the future....

Peace
James

sorry - but it is non-conforming. parts must match the drawing even if the drawing is wrong. a deviation msu tbe used to make parts that don't match the drawing until the drawing is changed. it may sound silly but fro things as critical as aerospace we must have some way of controlling things. it is in every one's best interest to have these htings in writing and not rely on any one's "common sense".

If you as the supplier knew the drawing was wrong you were supposed to request a change or a deviation before producing the parts. sorry I am with your Customer on this one.

RCW said:

I am also invoking ISO9001 / AS9100 Clause 7.2.1 b) 'requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or intended use, where known.'

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While you must be commended for being proactive and thinking ahead of the customer, you took a risk (AS9100 7.1.2 comes to mind) when you decided to consider the drawing wrong and proceed with the work with just a "verbal agreement".

It is a well known fact (not saying it is the case here) that some customers DELIBERATELY refuse to change drawing and specifications and VERBALLY tell suppliers that products which do not conform to requirements are OK to ship. They keep the supplier "hostage" of their whim and, anytime they want to reject a shipment, they use the drawing/spec to their benefit.

Lesson to be learned: If you are going to deviate from the customer drawing and it takes too long for them to change the document, have, AT LEAST, an email from an authorized rep confirming that it is OK for the product to be shipped.

Sidney Vianna said:

While you must be commended for being proactive and thinking ahead of the customer, you took a risk (AS9100 7.1.2 comes to mind) when you decided to consider the drawing wrong and proceed with the work with just a "verbal agreement".

It is a well known fact (not saying it is the case here) that some customers DELIBERATELY refuse to change drawing and specifications and VERBALLY tell suppliers that products which do not conform to requirements are OK to ship. They keep the supplier "hostage" of their whim and, anytime they want to reject a shipment, they use the drawing/spec to their benefit.

Lesson to be learned: If you are going to deviate from the customer drawing and it takes too long for them to change the document, have, AT LEAST, an email from an authorized rep confirming that it is OK for the product to be shipped.

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Sidney,

Your 'hostage' story is news to me. That is really sad that those kinds of business dealings are going on.

The 'AT LEAST' situation did work here though. There was email notification. However the deviation was not processed through an approved channel of official documenation.


Overall, I get it. If this comes up again, I will definitely handle it differently. HOWEVER, it would mean a lot to me if someone there simply said "Whoops! We made a mistake on the drawing." The fuss is all about that I shipped "nonconforming" product. When I asked about what methods are in place there for design review, I was rebuffed.

RCW said:

Sidney,

Your 'hostage' story is news to me. That is really sad that those kinds of business dealings are going on.

The 'AT LEAST' situation did work here though. There was email notification. However the deviation was not processed through an approved channel of official documenation.


Overall, I get it. If this comes up again, I will definitely handle it differently. HOWEVER, it would mean a lot to me if someone there simply said "Whoops! We made a mistake on the drawing." The fuss is all about that I shipped "nonconforming" product. When I asked about what methods are in place there for design review, I was rebuffed.

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It is sad, but many companies have lost their sense of ethics. It violates the 8th principle in ISO - "A Mutually Beneficial Supply Chain Relationship."

However, if you have an email from the responsible department or authority, as Sidney recommneded, then I would argue the product feature is NOT nonconforming product. The email is essentially a waiver. However, there may be PPAP or other considerations as well.

Helmut Jilling said:

It is sad, but many companies have lost their sense of ethics. It violates the 8th principle in ISO - "A Mutually Beneficial Supply Chain Relationship."

However, if you have an email from the responsible department or authority, as Sidney recommneded, then I would argue the product feature is NOT nonconforming product. The email is essentially a waiver. However, there may be PPAP or other considerations as well.

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Yes it is sad but having worked for many years in a situation where we did not control the drawings, I can tell you that it goes on quite a bit. I've even had the customer's own QC people complain to me about not being able to get drawing changes/waivers/etc. in a timely fashion.

About all that any of us can do in these cases is to get the issues on record as to what happened and if it happens again, make sure that any problem or hold-up is clearly in the customer's court.

Peace
James

Helmut Jilling said:

However, if you have an email from the responsible department or authority, as Sidney recommneded, then I would argue the product feature is NOT nonconforming product. The email is essentially a waiver. However, there may be PPAP or other considerations as well.

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In aerospace there are very specific written requirements on what constitutes a 'waiver' and an email is not one of them...the product is still nonconforming.

Bev D said:

In aerospace there are very specific written requirements on what constitutes a 'waiver' and an email is not one of them...the product is still nonconforming.

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I have to agree that an email is NOT sufficient to use as a waiver. In this great electronic age I can easily fudge a fake email allowing me to accept any product.

My whole quandry is the fact that the product is considered nonconforming only because it does not match the drawing. This is putting total creedence that the drawing is correct, which in this case it was incorrect. So from now on I'll be the good little supplier, build an inferior product to incorrect documentation and deliver junk. That's real quality in action!

Yes, I realize it would be easier to have a river flow backwards than to see total enlightenment in this area. So let's all drink the Kool-Aid, check the box and recite the mantra "Status Quo is the way to go!"

RCW said:

So from now on I'll be the good little supplier, build an inferior product to incorrect documentation and deliver junk

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That's not a good little supplier, that's an average supplier....A good supplier would inform the customer their drawing is wrong, wait for a stop/go/correction, then produce the product to the specification required by the customer