Product Audit - TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2.3

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haueyman

8.2.2.3 Product Audit which states; The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as product dimensionals, functionality, packaging and labelling, at a defined frequency.

My lead auditor and I argued that my annual PPAP log needs to be controlled due to this. The way I understand this is saying that an audit must be done in those different areas and does not say SHALL document.

If I choose to have a log that refers to an annual PPAP do I need to control this log? or do I need to control this and if so where does that state that in TS?
 
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Duke Okes

Re: Product Audit 8.2.2.3

If I choose to have a log that refers to an annual PPAP do I need to control this log? or do I need to control this and if so where does that state that in TS?


Assuming by "log" you mean something that tells you what you're doing to be doing at some point in the future, the answer is yes. It's possible that you might revise the log to add an additional product, or do an additional PPAP on an existing product, you need a way to be able to differentiate between the old version of the log and the new version. Section 4.2.3 requires control of documents.

If by "log" you mean a record showing what PPAPs you have done, again the answer is yes. Section 4.2.4 requires control of records.
 
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haueyman

Re: Product Audit 8.2.2.3

All this log does is tell me when specific part number is due to be laid out on the CMM. Some customers ask for the data but others do not. So this log is only to tell me that information. So I still need to control that log?
 
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Duke Okes

Re: Product Audit 8.2.2.3

All this log does is tell me when specific part number is due to be laid out on the CMM. Some customers ask for the data but others do not. So this log is only to tell me that information. So I still need to control that log?

Yes. It is the equivalent of a procedure or instruction. No different from a system audit schedule. If you revise the log you need to be able to tell the difference between the old one and new one. Just putting a revision date on it would suffice, assuming it complies with your document control policy.
 

pondo

Registered Visitor
8.2.2.3 Product Audit which states; The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as product dimensionals, functionality, packaging and labelling, at a defined frequency.

My lead auditor and I argued that my annual PPAP log needs to be controlled due to this. The way I understand this is saying that an audit must be done in those different areas and does not say SHALL document.

If I choose to have a log that refers to an annual PPAP do I need to control this log? or do I need to control this and if so where does that state that in TS?

I am going to take a stab at this, let me know if I am in left field.

When you say annual PPAP you really mean annual layout. The result would be data (record). Controlling the log does not really come into play as long as you are measuring everything that is required and you are keeping the data for the required retention time.

Product Audits as I have been directed by the registrar is just what the standard is stating. But it is above and beyond the ongoing quality checks (audits) that are documented in your control plan for your day to day manufacturing process. We just came up with a frequency like once a quarter we would take a part at various stages of manufacture and make sure they where correct to print. Annual layout data falls into this category?

Am I close?
 
H

haueyman

The data from the layout is stored on a controlled document but the issue was the log that tells the CMM operator of when to do the layout.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
If I choose to have a log that refers to an annual PPAP do I need to control this log? or do I need to control this and if so where does that state that in TS?

8.2.2.4 requires audits to be scheduled according to an annual plan. If the PPAP log is the annual plan, then it is the required document. 4.2.3 states that documents required by the QMS shall be controlled.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
How did you get to PPAP from this TS requirement? I don't see it.

It used to be called "dock audit" in QS 9000 days, and we treat it as that even today. We pull a lot off the truck and have at it.

It turns out I have full text versions of TS and QS on my home computer so now I will log off and go drink heavily, because it is very clearly time for me to get a life!

Cheers

Caster


Bad OLD Discredited QS 9000 Version

Final Product Audit - 4.10.4.2
The supplier shall conduct audits of packaged final product to verify conformance to all specified requirements (e.g. product, packaging, labeling) at an appropriate frequency.

NOTE: This activity, also known as a "dock audit", is based upon sampling and is generally performed after final inspection but prior to shipment. Where customer PPM requirements are met, the frequency of Final Product Audits may be reduced.

New Improved Way Better TS 16949 Version

8.2.2.3 Product audit
The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as product dimensions, functionality, packaging and labeling, at a defined frequency.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
How did you get to PPAP from this TS requirement? I don't see it.

Some companies combine the PPAP layout, TS product audit, and TS layout requirements into one big ball of wax. Why not? If you're auditing product "to verify conformity to all specified requirements," you've got the makings of a full layout.
 
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