What is in a Product Audit? TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2.3

clause 8.2.2.3 Product Audit
The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as dimensions, functionality, packaging and labeling at a defined frequency.

Is this activity different from what is stated in the control plan? ie start-up inspection,in-process inspection, final inspection, shipping final audit....

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

Apart from those threads in the similar discussions box below the page, there are others here.

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

Yes, it is different, basically because the resources that perform these kind of audit shall be independent.
Based upon your type of production, you shall also have in plan these audit.
For example, product audit in the shipping area could be seen as a "dock audit", checking by sampling some product ready to be shipped for the rightness of associated documentation, preservation of product, compliance vs Customer requirement also in terms of packaging and so on.
There are may example here as suggested by the collegue that could be customized vs your intent , based upon your needs.
Hope this helps.

bbzen said:

clause 8.2.2.3 Product Audit
The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as dimensions, functionality, packaging and labeling at a defined frequency.

Is this activity different from what is stated in the control plan? ie start-up inspection,in-process inspection, final inspection, shipping final audit....

Click to expand...

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

qusys said:

Yes, it is different, basically because the resources that perform these kind of audit shall be independent.
Based upon your type of production, you shall also have in plan these audit.
For example, product audit in the shipping area could be seen as a "dock audit", checking by sampling some product ready to be shipped for the rightness of associated documentation, preservation of product, compliance vs Customer requirement also in terms of packaging and so on.
There are may example here as suggested by the collegue that could be customized vs your intent , based upon your needs.
Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

This is not accurate, IMHO. There is no requirement for independent product audit! A dock audit alone will not be sufficient to comply with TS since there are other stages of the production processes where they are required. CB auditors have been told that dock audits are insufficient.

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

Thks for your feedback: they are usefull to improve and align the language.
As to dock audit , it was only an example from my side and it does not really cover the entire intent of the requirement.
The intent of the product audit is to verify the control plans' control across the different stages of the production, and in shipping area as well, assessing product dimensions, functionality, packaging, labelling , also taking into account customer's requirement.

As to the independence you said , I referred to the point 8.2.2 of ISO TS , where it says that the auditors cannot perform audit related to their own job.
In this sense we have applied it also in 8.2.2.2 and 8.2.2.3, being inside in the nature itself of the audit.
I agree with that the independence is not reported in 8.2.2.3, but we assume it from 8.2.2.
Hope this clarified

AndyN said:

This is not accurate, IMHO. There is no requirement for independent product audit! A dock audit alone will not be sufficient to comply with TS since there are other stages of the production processes where they are required. CB auditors have been told that dock audits are insufficient.

Click to expand...

bbzen said:

clause 8.2.2.3 Product Audit
The organization shall audit products at appropriate stages of production and delivery to verify conformity to all specified requirements, such as dimensions, functionality, packaging and labeling at a defined frequency.

Is this activity different from what is stated in the control plan? ie start-up inspection,in-process inspection, final inspection, shipping final audit....

Click to expand...

It's not different from the control plan, but the control plan should be used in conducting a product audit. A process audit is an examination of the process used to make a product (or deliver a service) while a product audit examines the output (the product or service itself) of the process at each stage of "product realization."

We have product audits at each stage and documented by QC Technicians. Actual product is ramdomly selected from each operation in the manufacturing process and parts are checked for visual characteristics and dimensions measured by QC Techs. Further, dock audits are performed for packaging, labeling, dunnage conditions. We can also do a visual audit of the parts to assure they are the correct parts because the sides are clear plastic wrapped. We've been through 7 years of 3rd party audits and never had an issue with this requirement of TS16949.

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

AndyN said:

This is not accurate, IMHO. There is no requirement for independent product audit! A dock audit alone will not be sufficient to comply with TS since there are other stages of the production processes where they are required. CB auditors have been told that dock audits are insufficient.

Click to expand...

Andy,

It is not an audit unless it is independent.

John

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

John Broomfield said:

Andy,

It is not an audit unless it is independent.

John

Click to expand...

I don't agree, John. Independent isn't the same as being from another department etc. The better (IMHO) terminology is 'objective and impartial'.......

I've seen plenty of auditors over the years who've been independent but far from objective and very definitely not impartial.

Re: 8.2.2.3 Product Audit (TS 16949)

AndyN said:

I don't agree, John. Independent isn't the same as being from another department etc. The better (IMHO) terminology is 'objective and impartial'.......

I've seen plenty of auditors over the years who've been independent but far from objective and very definitely not impartial.

Click to expand...

Andy,

Please allow me to refer you to the definition of audit in the normative reference ISO 9000:2005 in ISO 9001:2008.

John