Getting NADCAP for wire EDM only (already AS9100)

Z

z28tt

We're an AS9100 aerospace machine shop, and for one GE part that we shipped out of inventory (made 10 years ago!), they're wanting us to get NADCAP certified for special processes (in this case, EDM). We stopped dealing with GE years ago due to the amount of headaches involved, but they needed some parts we happen to have left in inventory.

In any case, how much of a PITA is it to get NADCAP certified for wire edm? We have our AS9100 QMS, and I could make a flowchart for the EDM process in 30 minutes... If that's it, then it seems like a nice feather in our cap. On the other hand, if it's re-writing dozens of procedures and processes, multi-day audits, etc, then I'd have a hard time selling that it would truly help the company... I don't want to take a step back from AS9100B (soon C) to go back to checklists, procedure instead of process audits, etc.

I'm reading through the NADCAP: The New Watchdog and NADCAP and Gap Analysis threads now, but they seem geared to heat treat, NDT, & plating companies that do that work as their primary business. In our case, it's just a pair of wire EDM's that are used occassionally for cutting accurate profiles... Thanks!
 

Sidney Vianna

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In any case, how much of a PITA is it to get NADCAP certified for wire edm? We have our AS9100 QMS, and I could make a flowchart for the EDM process in 30 minutes... If that's it, then it seems like a nice feather in our cap. On the other hand, if it's re-writing dozens of procedures and processes, multi-day audits, etc, then I'd have a hard time selling that it would truly help the company... I don't want to take a step back from AS9100B (soon C) to go back to checklists, procedure instead of process audits, etc.

I'm reading through the NADCAP: The New Watchdog and NADCAP and Gap Analysis threads now, but they seem geared to heat treat, NDT, & plating companies that do that work as their primary business. In our case, it's just a pair of wire EDM's that are used occassionally for cutting accurate profiles... Thanks!
Based on what I know, the investiments you would have to make, in order to have the EDM special process accredited is substantial. That program is covered under Nonconventional Machining and Surface Enhancement – based on the AC7116 and AC7117 series of checklists.

If I were in your situation, I would contact PRI/Nadacp for a ballpark estimate, so you can do a quick evaluation if there is a business case, or not.
 

DannyK

Trusted Information Resource
Getting NADCAP for EDM is much more involved than AS9100.

If GE needs the parts, they could find a way for you to furnish them without having NADCAP.
 
Z

z28tt

Getting NADCAP for EDM is much more involved than AS9100.

If GE needs the parts, they could find a way for you to furnish them without having NADCAP.

That's what I thought 12 months ago! :p We even submitted lab samples showing the Wire EDM'd surface was benched off (and even then it was just qualifying the tops of a few gear teeth!), and no re-cast layer, but I'm still waiting... :bonk:

Right now it seems a lot easier to just machine the parts due to the paperwork headaches involved, even though EDM is the better (faster=cheaper, and also more accurate) method.

I'm not sure why wire EDM using modern machines is a special process. Recast layer is less than .0001", and any of the lab samples have never had any microcracking. It seems like all EDM specs were written 20+ years ago when die sinker EDM's were in their infancy...

That being said, I'll contact PRI to see what they say, but I'm guessing it'll be a generic statement like "you'll need 3.5 days of auditing at $xxx/day", so it'll cost $5k + travel + hotel, in addition to all my time prepping, addressing non-value added NCR's (holy cow did that other thread scare me!), etc. Seems like spending my effort getting our company Lean, 5S'd, SigSigma'd, Value Stream Mapped, or some other flavor would have a better payback than NADCAP at the moment. We're a small company, and with limited resources, it seems like it would take a TON of my time better used elsewhere...
 
M

miahokie

We are being told we have to get our Wire EDM approved as a special process for AS9100 , has anyone done this? I would be very interested in not reinventing the wheel. All help is appreciated.
Thanks
Mia
 
A

alspread

That being said, I'll contact PRI to see what they say, but I'm guessing it'll be a generic statement like "you'll need 3.5 days of auditing at $xxx/day", so it'll cost $5k + travel + hotel, in addition to all my time prepping, addressing non-value added NCR's ...

Yea, you pretty much got the general idea. Plus, you will need to be processing parts in order to conduct the audit. So if these parts were made years ago there is no way to say that they were made to the same parameter, if I understand you correctly.

Is there any way to PROVE that a certain amount of stock was mechanically removed from EVERY EDM surface? And is this amount of stock significantly more (3-4 x) the recast layer of a test sample made with the same parameters?

GE loves test reports. If you can afford to scrap a part for testing, you may be able to substansiate full removal of all recast.

If you can prove this you may be able to get the parts bought without a GT7350 for EDM because you have proved full removal of all recast material.


Good Luck
 
A

alspread

We are being told we have to get our Wire EDM approved as a special process for AS9100 , has anyone done this? I would be very interested in not reinventing the wheel. All help is appreciated.
Thanks
Mia

Not unless you customer requires it. AS9100 has nothing about independent approval of special processes.

You do need to control your special processes, but you don't need them approved by an outside agency.
Unless you customer requires it.

Good luck
 
Z

z28tt

Yea, you pretty much got the general idea. Plus, you will need to be processing parts in order to conduct the audit. So if these parts were made years ago there is no way to say that they were made to the same parameter, if I understand you correctly.

Is there any way to PROVE that a certain amount of stock was mechanically removed from EVERY EDM surface? And is this amount of stock significantly more (3-4 x) the recast layer of a test sample made with the same parameters?

GE loves test reports. If you can afford to scrap a part for testing, you may be able to substansiate full removal of all recast.

If you can prove this you may be able to get the parts bought without a GT7350 for EDM because you have proved full removal of all recast material.

We ended up having a company on GE's Approved Vendor List do the EDM for us. The end results were in tol, but all over the place compared to how we do it. Oh well.

I forget who's spec it was, but the mechanical removal of EDM'd surfaces was several thousandths, which totally negates the purpose of EDM'ing the surface in the first place. If I have to add a grind or mill op, all the time saved is gone, and there's another setup.

We had to do another GT7350 for this one, since it's now a different vendor doing the EDM. Love it. Get paid for paper, not the parts! Have a great weekend guys.
 
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