Japanese companies don?t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Quality

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sridharafep

Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Quality

Few points for your intelligence…..

1. I know that SIX sigma (3.44 DPMO) is a tool for continual improvement. It is become fashion now a day that people talk (apply!) about it in many business activities – particularly big companies – good profit makers. I would like to open for a discussion that when can a company say – for the purpose of Marketing! “We are six sigma company”– since there is no third party certification as like ISO 9001/17025/14001

To highlight we are six sigma company and so…on..for marketing purpose! - to boost sales....

2. Another point here that an organization suppose identified 100 (x) processes and to start apply / measure six sigma methodologies Y=f(X) – 3.44 defects per million opportunities. Finally concluded that only 10% of the process with six sigma level, on this basis, is it ethical that they can just announce as a “We are six sigma company” :confused:

3. I heard that Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO and your views please. :rolleyes:

Sirdhar

[deleted email]
 
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Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO - still they are leading in Qual

Few points for your intelligence…..

1. I know that SIX sigma (3.44 DPMO) is a tool for continual improvement. It is become fashion now a day that people talk (apply!) about it in many business activities – particularly big companies – good profit makers. I would like to open for a discussion that when can a company say – for the purpose of Marketing! “We are six sigma company”– since there is no third party certification as like ISO 9001/17025/14001

To highlight we are six sigma company and so…on..for marketing purpose! - to boost sales....

2. Another point here that an organization suppose identified 100 (x) processes and to start apply / measure six sigma methodologies Y=f(X) – 3.44 defects per million opportunities. Finally concluded that only 10% of the process with six sigma level, on this basis, is it ethical that they can just announce as a “We are six sigma company” :confused:

3. I heard that Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO and your views please. :rolleyes:

Sirdhar

I find it very ironic that on the one hand, SS is purported to be all about the data, but on the other, when SS promoters are pressed to show evidence that their grandiose claims--almost always expressed in absurdly huge amounts of money saved-- are accurate, they always come up empty. Any company can print marketing broadsides that proclaim the wonderful quality of their products, regardless of the actual quality. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. When it comes to the claims that companies make about their own performance--which most often comes from marketing departments--I think of what George Orwell said about political language in his essay entitled Politics and the English Language:
Political language-and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists--is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.


Change the language around a bit and you come up with:
Marketing language--and with variations this is true of all companies--is designed to make lies sound truthful and to give the appearance of solidity to pure wind.

My advice is that when someone claims that SS (or any other such "strategy") has resulted in grand additions to the bottom line, you ask them to prove it. You might be surprised at how quickly they start stuttering and retreating to safer ground. I commend to your attention the case of a forum called TreQna which is operated by a consulting firm in India and dedicated to SS discussion. In perusing the forums there, I found a user calling himself ADB who had been banned. After spending much time in the reading through the posts there, it seemed to me that his only offense was in relentlessly questioning some of the pillars of SS, including the 1.5 sigma shift and DPMO calculations. It seems to have come to a point where the only alternative left was to prevent him from asking any more questions. Very Orwellian.
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO - still they are leading in Qual

Sirdhar, I deleted your email address to protect from spammers.

I think there is no bigger controversy than Six Sigma among QA types, and here in The Cove I feel sure no subject receives as lively a debate. I did a search using the words "six sigma hype" and came up with a list of 29 threads here. We could reopen the discussion, but you have 29 of them to look at in the meantime, hmmm.

It's not lost on most quality pros that successful Japanese companies are not using 6S. It's also self evident that U.S. executives are still besotted with the discipline, and Lean as well. So, we have groups of 6S enthusiasts, skeptics and stoic game players.

This forum is fairly quiet on weekends, so you can start reading today and open up specific topics/questions tomorrow.
 
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M Greenaway

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Dont forget that Six Sigma is just a branding given to a set of quality improvement tools and techniques, so to say that Japanese companies dont use it is perhaps true in that they dont do all the hype but I would imagine that they use the same tools and techniques, but probably to greater effect.
 
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massfrompak

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Few points for your intelligence…..

1. I know that SIX sigma (3.44 DPMO) is a tool for continual improvement. It is become fashion now a day that people talk (apply!) about it in many business activities – particularly big companies – good profit makers. I would like to open for a discussion that when can a company say – for the purpose of Marketing! “We are six sigma company”– since there is no third party certification as like ISO 9001/17025/14001

To highlight we are six sigma company and so…on..for marketing purpose! - to boost sales....

2. Another point here that an organization suppose identified 100 (x) processes and to start apply / measure six sigma methodologies Y=f(X) – 3.44 defects per million opportunities. Finally concluded that only 10% of the process with six sigma level, on this basis, is it ethical that they can just announce as a “We are six sigma company” :confused:

3. I heard that Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO and your views please. :rolleyes:

Sirdhar

[deleted email]
Sir you are absoulutely right that JAPANESE do no concentrate on iso and 6sigma. But sir they highly rely on lean concepts (5s etc..) which are actualy base from Japanese. An other thing is TQM philosphy tells us about Japan's approach to management and manufacturing in which Change Management, Management Commitment, Continuous Improvement. Employee Empowerment is kept on priority and these factors makes the things best..

thanks
Ahsan Saleem:nopity:
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
You can take ISO 9001, Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing (etc., etc.) and boil them down to 'Good Business Practices', 'Good Manufacturing Practices' or whatever.

It's not the 'program'. It's much more complex than simply 'implementing a new system', so to speak. ISO 9001 doesn't improve product or anything like that (See 'Cement Life Preserver'). ISO 9001 is nothing more than a basic set of quality systems with a liability limiting aspect.

As long as a company produces a 'quality' product or not, whether it is registered (aka 'certified') as ISO 9001 compliant by a registrar makes little difference.

If there is a problem - My opinion, of course - The significant problem is that people continue to equate 'quality' with ISO 9001 registration.

Dont forget that Six Sigma is just a branding given to a set of quality improvement tools and techniques...
Originally it wasn't. It sure is now. It's a cash cow.. :notme:
 
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wmarhel

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

You can take ISO 9001, Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing (etc., etc.) and boil them down to 'Good Business Practices', 'Good Manufacturing Practices' or whatever.

Isn't that the truth. The largest problem with Lean Manufacturing is that most companies don't/can't/won't integrate it into the foundation of the very business. Most of the concepts have been around longer than the existence of Toyota, yet companies still don't embrace them.

I think it largely comes down to understanding, and the willingness to be diligent in driving the business. Companies should stop looking for the shortcuts and improve every chance they get, every day. There was an interview in the July-August 2007 edition of the Harvard Business Review where the interviewer posed the following question to Toyota's President, "When a Toyota worker on the shop floor notices a problem, he or she has the freedom to pull the andon cord immediately, stop the line, and ensure that the problem is fixed before restarting production. But is it really possible to do that with the entire company? Don't you have to fix things as you go along?"

His response, "The same principle applies to management, too, and it's my job to pull the andon cord.

Is it better quality a result of tools or program, or does it evolve because a company is willingly to take the necessary actions even they might present some hardships. I don't think this is a trait unique to Toyota, look at companies such as L.L. Bean who take practically anything back because they stand by their products and want to keep the customer happy. There are other companies with a similar philosophy, unfortunately, there just aren't enough of them.

Wayne
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

You can take ISO 9001, Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing (etc., etc.) and boil them down to 'Good Business Practices', 'Good Manufacturing Practices' or whatever.
While I agree in principle with what you say, Marc, the practise is very different.

- ISO 9001 system implementation usually highlights areas of good practice that aren't being practised!

- Similarly Six Sigma is a methodology that you implement through training and project management - usually by a significant investment in time and effort. You can get your average Quality Engineer to pick it up themselves over time and start fixing entrenched problems but it normally requires top management support to get it going.

- Lean is even deeper rooted than the previous two. It requires the organization to develop a lean culture and turns the command structure on its head with management focussing on supporting front line staff - rather than the other way round. :notme:

So each might be good practice - just not practised that often. :D

It's not the 'program'. It's much more complex than simply 'implementing a new system', so to speak. ISO 9001 doesn't improve product or anything like that (See 'Cement Life Preserver'). ISO 9001 is nothing more than a basic set of quality systems with a liability limiting aspect.
Ah! The old "Concrete Life Preserver" example - how I love that old chestnut. Unfortunately another urban myth that depends on top management that don't know what they are doing and customers that don't know what they want .... it is tempting to say this is the case in our profession (when we spend every waking hour bemoaning the fact that management "Just don't understand quality"). But they know more than they let on .... :lol:

As long as a company produces a 'quality' product or not, whether it is registered (aka 'certified') as ISO 9001 compliant by a registrar makes little difference.
Another point that has been raised elsewhere many times - would people study the syllabus and do the work if there wasn't the exam at the end? If that were the case (and ISO 9001 is....
'Good Business Practices', 'Good Manufacturing Practices' or whatever.
.... then the "experts" in the cove would have no problems in having their ISO system assessed - as it's all already there! :lol:
If there is a problem - My opinion, of course - The significant problem is that people continue to equate 'quality' with ISO 9001 registration.
Now that is a statement I can relate to. My solution is probably a bit different though .... we need:
  • Organizations that understand the spirit of the requirements better than the letter of the standard
  • Auditors interested in assessing the ability of an organization to satisfy its customers' requirements rather than just "carry out an audit"
  • Certification bodies that are more interested in the quality of their registered firms than the quantity
  • Accreditation bodies that are interested in how effectively their certification bodies operate in the market place

But then again I'm just a sad old idealist! :frust:
 
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sridharafep

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO - still they are leading in Qual

It is really interesting, thank you for sharing your views / comments and quoting it.

I feel in reality there are many companies still lacking behind many small tool implementations for improvement in their business. There are many companies holding certification for the shake of business and compulsion. They knows very well it is good to practice to follow and improve their business but in actual reality!

I don’t understand how companies (GE / Motorola - in which sector!) they are classifying that they are having SS and saved a lot millions / billions....reality in market lot of complaints on their product.

But still i don't understand - for eg. an organization suppose identified 100 (x) processes and to start apply / measure six sigma methodologies Y=f(X) – 3.44 defects per million opportunities. Finally when they can conclude they are operating on SS “We are six sigma company”

Sridhar
 
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M Greenaway

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

To my mind it is more to do with adopting the approach of what is branded 'Six Sigma' then actually achieving a statistical capability index of six sigma across certain processes that allows a company to consider itself a 'Six Sigma' company.

But it is all hype, if you actually wanted to source a product from a certain supplier, and it was critical to your business you may well look for specific process capability indices on some feature or other of the part, rather than simply blindly placing orders with a company claiming to be a 'Six Sigma' company.
 
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