8.2.3 Monitoring & Measurement of Processes - Monitoring vs. Measurement

Hi friends
After a long search through this cove and internet, reading many threads and articles, I resulted in that the difference between measurement and monitoring is not clear even for QMS experts. So, I decided to reopen a new thread about this topic, with this hope that by your participations, dear masters, this thread would become a reference for all.
It should be mentioned that ISO 9000 family standards do not explain more than a definition of these words as follows:
Measure (verb): ascertain size, amount, or performance of (something) by comparison with a standard unit or with an object of known size
Monitor (verb): observe and check over a period of time; maintain regular close observation over

( ISO 9000 Introduction and support package: Guidance on some of the frequently used words found in the ISO 9000 family of standards).

Also, TC176 in guidance states that monitoring is always applicable but measurement may not be practicable or even possible (ISO 9000 Introduction and Support Package: Guidance on the Concept and Use of the Process Approach for management systems)
I think for this reason, ISO 9001 in clauses 4.1e and 8.2.3, uses the term where applicable after the word measure.

Here are some questions about the difference between monitoring and measurement of processes. I invite all to help others, as done up to now, by clarification the requirements of clause 8.2.3.

1- What is the difference between measurement and monitoring of a process?

2- We use some indicators for our processes such as design errors and duration to reply to an ECN for design process, on time delivery for our purchasing process, scrape/rework rates for our production process, MTBF and MTTR and cost for maintenance process, effectiveness of training courses for training process and so on. We have some formula for these indicators and we calculate these criteria periodically (monthly, seasonal, …).
My question is that are we monitoring these processes or measuring them?
I think we are monitoring then. If I am right, So give me some example of measuring a processes.

3- I clause 8.2.3 ISO/TS requires the organization to apply suitable methods for measuring or monitoring. I think definition of some indicators is a good method. May some one mention some other methods for monitoring and specially for measuring?

4- In clause 4.1c ISO/TS states:
determine criteria and methods needed to ensure that both the operation and control of these processes are effective.
May some one explain more about the meaning of CRITERIA, METHODS and especially CONTROLS in the above clause. I think criteria cab be indicators and their acceptance ranges, method can be periodically calculating the indicators or internal audits, and controls should be something similar to clause 7.5.1 (control of production)
Thanks all

i have not been studing the difference between them such as deeply like you, the definition i understand:
monitoring is check and inspect the running status for current production or system, look at them is comply with the standard requirements or customer expect;
measurement is a tool that use assess certain process or section is reach the goal prior to developed

I'm not an expert in this by any means but yes, monitor means to check and measuring at its highest level is about using statistical process control to determine if the process in statistical control.

Because not everyone can do statistical process control or has the software to do it with so other means have to be used. In this context, measuring means to collect suitable data from the process concerned that will enable reasonably accurate conclusions to be drawn about about the control or otherwise of the process.

The sorts of data one might use in this situation is data such as NC's, number of opportunities for improvement that have identified, implemented and found to be effective, the number of preventative actions that have been identified, assessed and implemented, the number of customer complaints received and dealt with promptly etc.

In any event, whether a process is under control and or effective, or otherwise, is for management to decide not the CB. I would'nt look much deeper into this issue than this because beyond this point it is largely academic and only creates confusion and saps organisational time and energy.

kgott - Not all processes can be monitored with SPC...In fact, a process, as I understand processes in TS, do not lend themselves to SPC at all.

Monitor: Look, record, plot a parameter and decide that the process is stable and in control. Goes well with validation parameter
Measure: Take the measurement and decide that the process is stable and in control. Goes well with measurable parameter, that have spec and limits.
Decide where what fits you...

morteza said:

1- What is the difference between measurement and monitoring of a process?

Click to expand...

The definitions you have provided in your original post are pretty much spot on...

morteza said:

2- We use some indicators for our processes such as design errors and duration to reply to an ECN for design process, on time delivery for our purchasing process, scrape/rework rates for our production process, MTBF and MTTR and cost for maintenance process, effectiveness of training courses for training process and so on. We have some formula for these indicators and we calculate these criteria periodically (monthly, seasonal, …).
My question is that are we monitoring these processes or measuring them?
I think we are monitoring then. If I am right, So give me some example of measuring a processes.

Click to expand...

You are doing both. You are maintaining close observation over these items and you are also obtaining quantifiable data for analysis (sometimes two birds can be killed with one stone).

morteza said:

3- I clause 8.2.3 ISO/TS requires the organization to apply suitable methods for measuring or monitoring. I think definition of some indicators is a good method. May some one mention some other methods for monitoring and specially for measuring?

Click to expand...

To be clear here, clause 8.2.3 states "The organization shall apply suitable methods for monitoring and, where applicable, measurement of the quality management system processes." Defining what methods to apply is always good (and sometimes critical), since without a way to monitor/measure you do not give an indicator of effectiveness - your process is essentially "flying blind". For fun, I'll provide a couple of "flying" examples...

Case of "measuring" for effectiveness: If you were flying a plane by yourself and it were dark and stormy, would you want your altitude gauge working to let you know you were still above the lightning strikes...your fuel meter operational to indicate to you that you would have enough juice to make it to your intended destination...or even a tower beacon to let you know you were near an airport? What this means is that without these measuring instruments, your plane could potentially be seconds from crashing and you wouldn't even be aware of it, not to mention unable to recover in time.

Case of "monitoring" for effectiveness: Now let's say that, in another scenario, you are a sky marshal on a commercial airline jet, but now you have a hijacker who wants to make trouble. You know that those training and simulation courses you took will pay off when you find an opportunity to subdue that hijacker from behind. What this means is that your trainer did monitor you over time (per his process), and determined that you could be effective if presented this scenario in a real-life situation. Now with a successful terrorist capture under your belt, this also provides an additional indicator of your effectiveness as a sky marshal.

So, methods can be anything you establish which help provide you with an estimation or a measurement that a process is working properly and effective in achieving its intended purpose...instruments, control charts, inspections, sub-processes, etc...you are only limited within the confines of the process in question.

morteza said:

4- In clause 4.1c ISO/TS states:
determine criteria and methods needed to ensure that both the operation and control of these processes are effective.
May some one explain more about the meaning of CRITERIA, METHODS and especially CONTROLS in the above clause. I think criteria cab be indicators and their acceptance ranges, method can be periodically calculating the indicators or internal audits, and controls should be something similar to clause 7.5.1 (control of production)

Click to expand...

When in doubt, go back to simplicity - go back to the definition (these are from the Encarta dictionary):
Criterion (often used in the plural) = an accepted standard for use in making a decision or judgment about something
Method = a way of doing something or carrying something out, especially according to a plan
Control (verb usage in this context) = to limit or restrict somebody or something

Hope I've Helped...
Brian

insect warfare said:

Criteria Criterion = an accepted standard for used in making a decision or judgment about something
Method = a way of doing something or carrying something out, especially according to a plan
Control (verb usage in this context) = to limit or restrict somebody or something

Click to expand...

FTFY cccccc

Touché, Jim....good catch

Brian

well replied by insect warfare

Does anyone have an example procedure that can be shared that meets the intent of the TS requirement?