Internal Audit Issue - Desk Audit?

Ok so where do i begin with this one!!!!

My Director carried out an Audit the other day and submitted the report to me to action along with the personnell responsable for the particular area.

Reading through the report it is quiet clear that this was carried out from behind a desk, not questions asked so basically knew where bits and pieces where and put in a damning report.

I have challenged this and asked what happend to planning the audit, setting out to ask openend ended question to carry out a full indepth audit. I got a reply of i did this audit last year and spoke to employees so i wanted to see if the procedure works!!!

I can see a little sense it what was being done but surely to do a proper audit you have ask question, talk to people etc.

what are you thoughts as this became a rather heated discussed yesterday!!

Thanks

Wayne

Re: Internal Audit Issue

What was the focus of the audit?

I agree with you (on the face of it) that it is inplausible to conduct an audit from behind a desk. How did he 'observe' his findings?

Re: Internal Audit Issue

wayne.wilson7 said:

Ok so where do i begin with this one!!!!

My Director carried out an Audit the other day and submitted the report to me to action along with the personnell responsable for the particular area.

Reading through the report it is quiet clear that this was carried out from behind a desk, not questions asked so basically knew where bits and pieces where and put in a damning report.

I have challenged this and asked what happend to planning the audit, setting out to ask openend ended question to carry out a full indepth audit. I got a reply of i did this audit last year and spoke to employees so i wanted to see if the procedure works!!!

I can see a little sense it what was being done but surely to do a proper audit you have ask question, talk to people etc.

what are you thoughts as this became a rather heated discussed yesterday!!

Thanks

Wayne

Click to expand...

Was this audit included in the internal audit programme?
What is the scope and the extention?
Did you know that the process of which I guess you are process owner was being auditing?
The entire process seems nto so robust, but we have to know more details

Re: Internal Audit Issue

The Audit in question is part of our audit program that is carried out yearly (well this process is yearly)

It is our competance and training which i have had a heads up that our external auditors will be looking into this very closely for my 3 year strategic review in Feb

I have the damn thing on my desk and every time i look at it i want to tear it up and request it is done again.

I am not the process owner but overview all audits and ensure they are carried out and actioned with in a timely fashion.

Basically it states the latest skills matrice was last updated in 2009, the process owner has since been developing the system and now has electronic copies attached to each employee on our system. So it was classed as a major for being so out dated. My argument was if the QUESTIONS were asked they would have been shown the latest of 2011.

thanks for feed back people

Re: Internal Audit Issue

wayne.wilson7 said:

The Audit in question is part of our audit program that is carried out yearly (well this process is yearly)

It is our competance and training which i have had a heads up that our external auditors will be looking into this very closely for my 3 year strategic review in Feb

I have the damn thing on my desk and every time i look at it i want to tear it up and request it is done again.

I am not the process owner but overview all audits and ensure they are carried out and actioned with in a timely fashion.

Basically it states the latest skills matrice was last updated in 2009, the process owner has since been developing the system and now has electronic copies attached to each employee on our system. So it was classed as a major for being so out dated. My argument was if the QUESTIONS were asked they would have been shown the latest of 2011.

thanks for feed back people

Click to expand...

Agree with.
I do not understand why the process owner has not been interviewed to show evidence. Audit is a two way activity, not on one direction, and it is an activity based upon objective evidence to be evaluated vs internal procedure, standard, customer requirement....

Re: Internal Audit Issue

wayne.wilson7 said:

The Audit in question is part of our audit program that is carried out yearly (well this process is yearly)

It is our competance and training which i have had a heads up that our external auditors will be looking into this very closely for my 3 year strategic review in Feb

I have the damn thing on my desk and every time i look at it i want to tear it up and request it is done again.

I am not the process owner but overview all audits and ensure they are carried out and actioned with in a timely fashion.

Basically it states the latest skills matrice was last updated in 2009, the process owner has since been developing the system and now has electronic copies attached to each employee on our system. So it was classed as a major for being so out dated. My argument was if the QUESTIONS were asked they would have been shown the latest of 2011.

thanks for feed back people

Click to expand...

Was your training SOP updated to reflect the change in procedure re. "electronic copies attached to each employee on our system"?

Re: Internal Audit Issue

to be fair the process hadn't been up issued, which is part of the audit i would accept!

I have just had yet another discussion about it and the Audtor is still adament that she knew where the latest docs where so didnt need to ask the question as it was deemed wasting their time!!

anyway onwards and upwards and an external course to be booked to educate i think.

Re: Internal Audit Issue

wayne.wilson7 said:

to be fair the process hadn't been up issued, which is part of the audit i would accept!

I have just had yet another discussion about it and the Audtor is still adament that she knew where the latest docs where so didnt need to ask the question as it was deemed wasting their time!!

anyway onwards and upwards and an external course to be booked to educate i think.

Click to expand...

It is just what I was thinking to when I said that the process does not seem robust. Clearly training and awareness is only an aspect, the key one is that the top mgmt shall sponsor ISO 9001 and process approach in effective way.
I am saying this because the mgmt review could also have wrong input from the internal audit results if these one are not consistent with the current status of QMS processes

Re: Internal Audit Issue

I agree with the comments. In my opinion a effective Internal Audit in this area has not been completed and this clearly shows a lack of management support regarding your entire ISO program.

A simple way to fix it is to inform your CB auditor of your concerns and let him uncover it in your audit. This should trigger a couple of findings and generally gets managements attention.

Re: Internal Audit Issue

wayne.wilson7 said:

to be fair the process hadn't been up issued, which is part of the audit i would accept!

I have just had yet another discussion about it and the Audtor is still adament that she knew where the latest docs where so didnt need to ask the question as it was deemed wasting their time!!

anyway onwards and upwards and an external course to be booked to educate i think.

Click to expand...

The bolded struck me as an odd statement...Waste of who's time; The auditor's time? Your time? The process owner's time? (I suspect it is the auditor's time)
Since the audit has landed on your desk for "action" it appears that the questions DO need to be asked, but the auditor wants YOU to ask them through the "actions" that she wants done. In other words she wants to wast your time rather than hers...

Not sure what you can do about this in the short term other than maybe just performing the actions and getting the blasted thing off of your desk.
But as already mentioned...It sounds like Training - good, robust, external training is needed.

Peace
James