Interviewing an External Auditor? Choose a Registrar for ISO 9001 Registration

I am trying to choose a company for ISO 9001 Registration. I have never done this before, but have read a lot here in the Cove about bad experiences.

I had a gentleman in here a couple of weeks ago that I was interested in using for an external auditor. He did not like the format of my quality manual. He complained because I had more than six procedures. He wanted me to call many of my procedures work instructions.

There are a lot of auditor complaints out there and I cannot afford to have my system fail because someone is not process auditing or is still auditing to ISO9001:1994 or their own personal ideas of how a company should be run!

I am going to interview other auditors (many who are not local and so cannot just drop in for a visit). I wrote some questions out and want some comments.

I wrote these questions based on topics I have seen here and to confuse the auditor as to my position. That is why some of the questions come from different angles. I know where I stand, but in the end I don’t want to bias the auditor. I ask open ended questions to find any personal vendettas and then ask other questions to see if there will be an immediate bias for or against my system.

I want the audit to be an accurate assessment of our system.

Questions:

What is your method for auditing a system?
What do you like to see in a quality manual?
Do you like to see the standard copied verbatim in the quality manual?
Do you think a company can effectively manage a system with a one page quality manual?
What do you think of a company that has included more than the "required" minimum?
How many procedures are required?
What is your judgment concerning work instructions vs. procedures?
What if a “work instruction” is labeled as a procedure?
What will you do if I debate a finding with you?
What if I use a document control method that you have never seen before, but it works as in a wiki?
What is your method for determining that a finding is corrected?

Does anyone else have questions that I should ask to understand an auditors position or comments on these questions?

Re: interviewing an external auditor?

Your questions are okay but they are very dependent on an individual's auditing method. You should not assume you will get the same auditor over and over. Here are some other questions that you should consider.

How long does the registration last?
How many follow up audits are done and what is the frequency during the registration period?
Is the registration a continuing registration that lasts as long as the audits are done or is a new registration required after a given number of years?
What is the registrar's corrective action system if you have a complaint?
What is the auditor turnover rate for your company?
How many auditors are sent for the initial audit and for how long?
How many auditors are sent for follow up audits and for how long?
What preliminary information including a draft copy of the quality manual is needed before the initial audit?
Do you do a complete system audit at each followup audit or is there an audit plan to cover all processes over a period of time?
What is the cost including travel expenses for the registration and follow up audits?

Bill Pflanz

Re: interviewing an external auditor?

Bill Pflanz said:

Your questions are okay but they are very dependent on an individual's auditing method. You should not assume you will get the same auditor over and over. Here are some other questions that you should consider.

How long does the registration last?
How many follow up audits are done and what is the frequency during the registration period?
Is the registration a continuing registration that lasts as long as the audits are done or is a new registration required after a given number of years?
What is the registrar's corrective action system if you have a complaint?
What is the auditor turnover rate for your company?
How many auditors are sent for the initial audit and for how long?
How many auditors are sent for follow up audits and for how long?
What preliminary information including a draft copy of the quality manual is needed before the initial audit?
Do you do a complete system audit at each followup audit or is there an audit plan to cover all processes over a period of time?
What is the cost including travel expenses for the registration and follow up audits?

Bill Pflanz

Click to expand...

To add to Bill's comments, some questions aren't really the domain of an individual auditor, for example to duration of the audit. That is set by the CB they work for, scope etc.

I agree that much of what the auditor does is individual, some of it is CB process etc. Many people chose solely on the auditor, which make life a bit risky, once they aren't available, forgetting it's also the 'back office's support which also matters, etc.

However, it is wise to select a CB through a balance of both auditor competency and value/service from the CB, so you will end up with a composite picture to base your selection upon.

Re: Interviewing an External Auditor?

I'll be more blunt and to the point...Tell the guy to take a hike.

It doesn't matter what he wants or likes or desires or hopes, all that matters is whether or not you have effectively met requirements. In the information you have provided about his statements and attitude, he has demonstrated a lack of objectivity, impartiality and bias.

Re: Interviewing an External Auditor?

There are some very good questions here but the sad part is, most of them should be totally unnecessary. As Randy put it so eloquently, tell him/her to take a hike!

What business of the auditor is it how you structure your QMS? As long as you satisfy the requirements of the standard, do it the way that works best for you.

Re: interviewing an external auditor?

Bill Pflanz said:

Your questions are okay but they are very dependent on an individual's auditing method. You should not assume you will get the same auditor over and over. Here are some other questions that you should consider.

How long does the registration last?
How many follow up audits are done and what is the frequency during the registration period?
Is the registration a continuing registration that lasts as long as the audits are done or is a new registration required after a given number of years?
What is the registrar's corrective action system if you have a complaint?
What is the auditor turnover rate for your company?
How many auditors are sent for the initial audit and for how long?
How many auditors are sent for follow up audits and for how long?
What preliminary information including a draft copy of the quality manual is needed before the initial audit?
Do you do a complete system audit at each followup audit or is there an audit plan to cover all processes over a period of time?
What is the cost including travel expenses for the registration and follow up audits?

Bill Pflanz

Click to expand...

Thank you everyone for your input.

Bill, I know the answers to my questions, but I don't the answers to all of yours. I guess the right answer varies on the need of the company. I have been asking for quotes and were I cannot estimate the travel cost (using local auditors) I have been asking the CB to provide that number. This one item is the largest cost variation in the quotes that I have received.

Re: interviewing an external auditor?

zekeQA said:

Thank you everyone for your input.

Bill, I know the answers to my questions, but I don't the answers to all of yours. I guess the right answer varies on the need of the company. I have been asking for quotes and were I cannot estimate the travel cost (using local auditors) I have been asking the CB to provide that number. This one item is the largest cost variation in the quotes that I have received.

Click to expand...

One thing you should be aware of is that you're not interviewing auditors, per se. You're interviewing CB sales people. As with other all other sales people, their job is to get the business, and the depth of their knowledge and experience with actual auditing may be variable. With that in mind, a question to ask might be "What can your company do for me that [Brand X] can't do?"

As with all other sales transactions of this sort, you should remember that whatever a salesperson might claim, it's worthless if it's not in the contract.

Re: interviewing an external auditor?

Jim Wynne said:

"What can your company do for me that [Brand X] can't do?"

Click to expand...

In my opinion, before anyone goes about selecting a CB, they should be honest and ask themselves some key questions about what they want from their relationship with their registrars? Many simply want the darn piece of paper, as the ticket to "appease" a customer. In those cases, go for the unscrupulous, path of least resistance, cheapest route. There are a few out there longing to deal. They will sell you a certificate, not an assessment service. You pay the bills, you get and keep the certificate.
On the other hand, if you want a relationship that adds value, with knowledgeable, seasoned auditors, with audits that focus on higher risk areas of your management system, there are a number of good CB's. Craig Cochran had a nice article on how to select a registrar: What is the best way to select a registrar - Cochran.doc

Re: Interviewing an External Auditor?

What is your method for auditing a system?
Process oriented

What do you like to see in a quality manual?
Depending on the standard: goals, responsibilities, a quality plan.

Do you like to see the standard copied verbatim in the quality manual?
Nope.

Do you think a company can effectively manage a system with a one page quality manual?
I’ll go for 2 pages (personal preference)

What do you think of a company that has included more than the "required" minimum?
As long as they demonstrate compliance, I have no issue.

How many procedures are required?
Depends on the standard. If ISO9000: the min 6, plus whatever necessary (flowcharts, etc) in order to demonstrate customer required specs product.

What is your judgment concerning work instructions vs. procedures?
Clarify…

What if a “work instruction” is labeled as a procedure?
Irrelevant. I can call them gremlins as long as the term is defined.

What will you do if I debate a finding with you?
1.Objective evidence + reasoning.
2.Objective evidence + reasoning.
3.Objective evidence + reasoning.

What if I use a document control method that you have never seen before, but it works as in a wiki?
As long as the document is controlled, changes are documented, un-controlled copies are not in use and the document is accessible for the intent use and personnel there is nothing to say (imo).

What is your method for determining that a finding is corrected?
Re-audit the whole process.

Re: Interviewing an External Auditor?

Is the CB accredited?
How long does it take to produce the certificate?
What are your costs?
Tell me about your corrective action and complaint process.
What is the price for your service?
What is the CB's capacity? (We have a hard time getting available TS 16949 auditors from our CB because they don't have very many of them.)
What is the aim of the CB? What is their product?
How does the CB determine the level of satisfaction of their clients?
How does the CB determine and maintain training, competency and awareness?