Taking over duties from a Quality Manager who left - Taken for a ride?

I joined this community recently, when I learned that our QAM was being fired. At that time it was decided that I would take over the majority of his duties as QAM. I was assured that I would be given a raise, and I assumed it would come with a new title.

Currently my primary title is Document Control Coordinator. I've been in charge of quality documents for 2 years, during which I've completely rewritten the QMS and had great luck implementing a number of changes that make it actually work for the company. To further assist the company I became ISO13485 certified in early '08, and began performing the internal audits as well as attending external audits and management review meetings. Recently I've been the go-to gal when we are proving compliance to a country we plan to sell in.

While I am not really qualified to take over as QAM, I didn't think it was that much of a stretch as I had been directly assisting the QAM for some time and had put quite a bit of effort into learning the standards. But, when it came down to it they decided I wasn't management material and they've hired someone with more age and office experience (but no ISO or regulatory experience--I'm expected to train them on that).

I spent the first part of this week a little hurt at my lost promotion, but I was starting to feel ok about it. After all, we have two big audits coming up this fall and I'd have a chance to show my value. But that got me thinking about my value here. I'm a Michigan girl, and a newb to both California and this type of work. To be honest, when I landed the position I was just happy to have a paycheck whatever the number on it was.

So I did some research. The national average salary for someone with my job title is nearly $20 thousand higher per year than what I make currently, and that isn't even taking into consideration the specialized regulatory work I do--just document control.

Ok, maybe the company is just cheap and everyone is underpaid. They are pretty small, after all.

So I chatted with my friend the customer service rep. When I divulged my salary she was so embarrassed that she refused to tell me exactly how much more she makes than I do. All she would say is that she didn't understand how they thought I could live on what I make.

Then I found the ad the company listed for the position that will be absorbing the QAM role--the one I am to train in everything I know about ISO. If the company keeps their promises this person will be making fully twice my salary.

So my question is: am I right in thinking that something unfair is going on here? Or is a pay gap that large something I should expect as a person with limited experience? Additionally, if I am being paid unfairly is there a way to avoid it being perpetuated by future oportunistic employers?

Re: Taken for a ride?

saintly said:

I joined this community recently, when I learned that our QAM was being fired. At that time it was decided that I would take over the majority of his duties as QAM. I was assured that I would be given a raise, and I assumed it would come with a new title.

Currently my primary title is Document Control Coordinator. I've been in charge of quality documents for 2 years, during which I've completely rewritten the QMS and had great luck implementing a number of changes that make it actually work for the company. To further assist the company I became ISO13485 certified in early '08, and began performing the internal audits as well as attending external audits and management review meetings. Recently I've been the go-to gal when we are proving compliance to a country we plan to sell in.

While I am not really qualified to take over as QAM, I didn't think it was that much of a stretch as I had been directly assisting the QAM for some time and had put quite a bit of effort into learning the standards. But, when it came down to it they decided I wasn't management material and they've hired someone with more age and office experience (but no ISO or regulatory experience--I'm expected to train them on that).

I spent the first part of this week a little hurt at my lost promotion, but I was starting to feel ok about it. After all, we have two big audits coming up this fall and I'd have a chance to show my value. But that got me thinking about my value here. I'm a Michigan girl, and a newb to both California and this type of work. To be honest, when I landed the position I was just happy to have a paycheck whatever the number on it was.

So I did some research. The national average salary for someone with my job title is nearly $20 thousand higher per year than what I make currently, and that isn't even taking into consideration the specialized regulatory work I do--just document control.

Ok, maybe the company is just cheap and everyone is underpaid. They are pretty small, after all.

So I chatted with my friend the customer service rep. When I divulged my salary she was so embarrassed that she refused to tell me exactly how much more she makes than I do. All she would say is that she didn't understand how they thought I could live on what I make.

Then I found the ad the company listed for the position that will be absorbing the QAM role--the one I am to train in everything I know about ISO. If the company keeps their promises this person will be making fully twice my salary.

So my question is: am I right in thinking that something unfair is going on here? Or is a pay gap that large something I should expect as a person with limited experience? Additionally, if I am being paid unfairly is there a way to avoid it being perpetuated by future oportunistic employers?

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Welcome to the Cove.

You acknowledge that you are "not really qualified to take over as QAM." I will accept this at face value, although you might be underestimating yourself. If you feel that you're not making the salary you deserve, there are three options. You can make your case to management, but because it appears that you are significantly underpaid, the strategy isn't likely to bring you to the level you'd like to see. Your first mistake, if there was one, was accepting a lowball offer to begin with.

The second option is to look elsewhere, with a firm idea in mind of what you expect to be paid. It's not the best time right now to be job-hunting, but the best time to look for a new job is when you're employed. It doesn't cost anything to shop around, but you need to resist the urge to use the potential for new employment as a bargaining point with your current employer. Those things almost never have happy endings. You create a certain amount of risk just by telling your employer that you're not happy with the current situation, but when you tell them that company x is willing to pay more, you might find yourself suddenly out the door.

The third option is to stay where you are and gain experience that might make you feel qualified for a management position in the future (with your present employer or elsewhere). Depending on your age, education, general work experience and needs, it might be worth it.

saintly said:

.....SNIP.......To be honest, when I landed the position I was just happy to have a paycheck whatever the number on it was. .....SNIP ...........
So my question is: am I right in thinking that something unfair is going on here? Or is a pay gap that large something I should expect as a person with limited experience? Additionally, if I am being paid unfairly is there a way to avoid it being perpetuated by future oportunistic employers?

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Welcome to The Cove. Suggest you look at the Asking for a Raise and Justifying a Raise thread, which exemplifies (in my opinion) that employers will pay as little as possible, once people accept substandard compensation. Only you can determine if the situation is "fair or unfair". You mentioned yourself that you were happy to land a job, no matter the numbers in the paycheck.

Simply put, if you want a raise, you have to make it very clear to the boss. But make sure you have a plan B, if they deny you a decent increase.

Best of luck.

So my question is: am I right in thinking that something unfair is going on here?

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The short answer, saintly, is "probably."

Jim's points are all valid.

Just as an aside - only organizations, not individuals, are "registered with a certificate of registration" to ANY ISO or SAE Quality Management Standard.

You made a minor error when you wrote

To further assist the company I became ISO13485 certified in early '08,

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Perhaps you meant you took a course to be an accredited auditor or something similar.

In terms of ANY job, both candidates and incumbents should continually check the market to assure they are being paid close to the prevailing wage for the activities, responsibilities, expertise, and experience they bring to the job. Often, though, folks greatly over- or under-estimate the value they provide to the employer.

One of the best reality checks is to check with an association of employees working in similar positions (ASQ, SAE, even unions, etc.) to determine whether the activities, responsibilities, expertise, and experience they bring to the job are really comparable to others making the desired wage.

In fairness to both employee and employer, there is a tendency, especially among smaller organizations, for top managers to be extremely reluctant to change an initial mindset about the value of an employee unless the employee makes a strong effort to demonstrate the increased value he/she brings to the organization as a result of added duties, more education, etc.

For an extreme example, consider an employee working as a janitor who goes to school nights and earns an MBA.

During that time at school, he also gets the added duty of driving the company van to make local deliveries along with a ten dollar a week raise. Unless he suddenly gets promoted to a position of planning company strategy, his MBA provides no additional value to the organization.

Without reading through both the original and your rewrite of the Quality Manual, none of us here can give you a valid opinion whether you provided value to your organization with the rewrite or not. Why, exactly, did anyone think a rewrite was necessary if the organization were already registered to ISO 13485? (especially since ISO 13485 specifically proscribes "improvement" without approval from the registrar and [here in the USA] the FDA.)

If, after reading through all the comments here in this thread, you feel the urge to seek other employment, please take the time to read through the threads listed below. Many folks have found them helpful in the job hunt. Thinking about a New Job for New Year?

Resume and cover letter - How good are yours?

The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references

Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting

Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future?

Contracting/Temping - Viable Alternates in Tough Times

Thank you all for your replies!

Due to this and a number of other issues with my employer (like being unable to convince the Director of Sales that common issues with the product may indicate a design flaw and not that our customers are idiots), I have already started seeking alternative employment. I've received several 5% raises as my responsibilities have increased, but something tells me that if they were willing to give me the 30% it would take to put me on par with other staff members they would have done it some time ago.

I'm mostly curious about how outside, experienced professionals would handle, or advise me to handle, the situation. I appreciate the input!

Your first mistake, if there was one, was accepting a lowball offer to begin with.

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Yes, I have to say that I feel like a right fool for that. I came in as an intern, and when I was promoted to my current position the offer they gave was not only significantly higher than my pay as an intern, but was enough to go pretty far back in Michigan! This lesson has been learned.

You made a minor error when you wrote

Quote:To further assist the company I became ISO13485 certified in early '08,

Perhaps you meant you took a course to be an accredited auditor or something similar.

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You are absolutely right--that is exactly what I meant.

Without reading through both the original and your rewrite of the Quality Manual, none of us here can give you a valid opinion whether you provided value to your organization with the rewrite or not. Why, exactly, did anyone think a rewrite was necessary if the organization were already registered to ISO 13485?

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Here's the short of it: In '05 the company hired someone to come in and write the Quality Manual, so that they could sell in Canada. He came in, took a tour, then sat down and wrote the manual without really consulting anyone. Then he went on his merry way, everyone signed the procedures, and that was the last time anyone looked at it until I joined up in '07. I was filing corrective action requests and came across several open ones pertaining to the manual and its lack of effectiveness or implementation. I brought it up and they asked if I had time to make the changes. That was when I began my ISO13485 journey and discovered that the best way to fix it was to start again at the beginning.

To judge by the reactions of our external auditors, it was an immense improvement.

saintly said:

In '05 the company hired someone to come in and write the Quality Manual, so that they could sell in Canada. He came in, took a tour, then sat down and wrote the manual without really consulting anyone. Then he went on his merry way, everyone signed the procedures, and that was the last time anyone looked at it until I joined up in '07.

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Oh groan... a pox be upon him and what a crappy and ineffective thing to do! (But the company also is responsible: they should not have allowed that to occur, nor for the thing to just sit there for 2 years either.)

Well saintly, I see you have already received some very good responses to your dilemma. I don't disagree with any of them, but, being opinionated and having been undervalued myself, naturally I favor some inputs over others.

I think it is apparent that your employer wants a QMS of convenience, something to show people whom they believe will be satisfied by it, but not necessarily willing to put earnest effort into maintaining in the spirit of excellence.

The more one cares about such a thing, the more it hurts. And I sense you are unlikely to budge them, either on a change of QMS heart or recognizing you for your level of responsibility.

They are interested in getting their best deal on compensation, and probably believe it's good business to do so, or in times like these it's necessary to keep going. Whichever, or even if it's for another reason, since they have not seen fit to appropriately compensate you now, they may never do so, no matter how well you present your case. And this is not a good time to seek another position.

So it's time to ask yourself what you want. Do you want to be a QA Manager, or Document Control Coordinator? If the position appeals to you, you've been handed a premium opportunity to act like a QA Manager, fight the good fight, ride the learning curve - and we are happy to help with that - for as long as it takes (or as long as you can take it) to make this a primo resume feature.

Many years ago, this is how I did it:

1) I made small, but mentionable improvements that I was able to point to as real cost savings through efficiency - and it simultaneously resolved a repeated customer complaint. This is precisely the kind of resume bullet that gives you traction when pursing your next management job - even if you are managing something besides QA.

2) I established the shop's first SPC charts. They were crude, and my boss (the company's president) didn't want to bring SPC into his company (he said he didn't want to bureaucratize the place) but I collected the charts anyway and analyzed their data. I did the math and proposed a project to control the CNC area's environment by enclosing the area and installing AC. I estimated that even a 10% reduction in one cause of scrap (finished hole size) the project's ROI would be less than two years. The president didn't agree to the project (he said it would cause a mutiny) but the entire exercise was precisely what a QA Manager needs to be able to do, so it was valuable. Inevitably change occurs, in many cases via a generational turnover. This is especially true with small business. The new management (the president's daughter, with her new Masters in Manufacturing Administration but no success in getting Plant Manager placement) grasped my paperwork reverently and breathed a grateful "Thank you." It was validation enough.

And so this can be about much more than a raise. Since it's rare to get this kind of promotion (most companies hire their QA Managers) this is a rare opportunity for you to pack your resume with powerful, truthful examples that can get you the job that you deserve with the pay you deserve, with a company that deserves you.

Consider yourself lucky. Count your blessings as often as you can. It's healthy to do so. Help the company's people succeed whenever and however you reasonably can, and write down as you go how the company has benefited because our memories get foggy over time and it's too easy to feel we're not making progress.

I hope this helps!

saintly said:

While I am not really qualified to take over as QAM, I didn't think it was that much of a stretch as I had been directly assisting the QAM for some time and had put quite a bit of effort into learning the standards. But, when it came down to it they decided I wasn't management material and they've hired someone with more age and office experience (but no ISO or regulatory experience--I'm expected to train them on that).

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The others have given you a lot of excellent advice. I would like to add that there are interim opportunities for growth in both pay and experience.

While your company may have been correct in assessing your readiness for QAM (and you seem to agree), you appear to be ready for more responsibility that your job currently entails. Have you considered looking for positions with greater responsibility such as a quality engineering position? I don't think you mentioned whether you had a degree. While many companies do require an degree, there are still many that do not.

I have known many excellent QEs without engineering degrees, and many poor QEs with degrees. Experience, readiness to learn (which you have demonstrated), initiative (which you have also demonstrated) and uncommon sense can make a better quality engineer than all the degrees in the world. Of course having all of these is the best combination of all.

I recommend that you keep your current position, but look for better opportunities. Many companies will only provide significant pay increases for new hires, or a promotion. Merit increases are typically limited to 3-5%. Many promotions are also capped at some limit (say 10%), which is why new hires can come in at higher pay levels than internal promotions.

Hi Saintly and All
Even nothing can be added to all these wises advicecs, i would say just take your time and seek of another opportunity.

Actually i'm worry about this point

saintly said:

--the one I am to train in everything I know about ISO. If the company keeps their promises this person will be making fully twice my salary.

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because of what have been said in another thread and resume as well my worries :

http://elsmar.com/Forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=241469

Wes Bucey said:

....
When all else fails in convincing the powers that be of your true worth and getting compensated accordingly, you need an escape plan, because, once begun, bosses will sense 'wanderlust' in you and seek to replace you ASAP to prevent being caught if you leave with little or no notice for a job that pays what you are worth.

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Add to this, even you are doing your best in the next audits, surely they will be happy with, benefit of it but won't make any change in your situation
Sharing a knowledge is good and definitely commendable but keep your adding value to the company enough interesting to them if you stay in
Good luck Saintly
Selena