Non Conformity (Nonconformance) Report & Preventive Action Requirements

lakshit · Aug 5, 2011

Hello friends,
I'd like to know whether the Non Conformity report should ask for Preventive Action, apart from Correction & Corrective Action.
I am asking this question because recently in a Lead Auditor course on ISO 9001:2008, the trainer said that it is incorrect to ask for Preventive Action on the Non Conformity form. As an example he sited the document "ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on: "Documenting a Nonconformity", where there is no mention of Preventive Action required once a non conformity is raised.

Thanks
Lakshit Seth

Marc · Aug 5, 2011

Re: Non Conformity (Nonconformance) Report & Preventive Action

Who/What is the "ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group"?

lakshit · Aug 5, 2011

Re: Non Conformity (Nonconformance) Report & Preventive Action

The ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group is constituted as an informal group of quality management system (QMS) experts, auditors and practitioners, drawn from the ISO Technical Committee 176 Quality Management and Quality Assurance (ISO/TC 176) and the International Accreditation Forum (IAF).

Sidney Vianna · Aug 5, 2011

Re: Non Conformity (Nonconformance) Report & Preventive Action

lakshit said:
Hello friends,
I'd like to know whether the Non Conformity report should ask for Preventive Action, apart from Correction & Corrective Action.
I am asking this question because recently in a Lead Auditor course on ISO 9001:2008, the trainer said that it is incorrect to ask for Preventive Action on the Non Conformity form. As an example he sited the document "ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on: "Documenting a Nonconformity", where there is no mention of Preventive Action required once a non conformity is raised.

Thanks
Lakshit Seth

Technically, he is correct. For an EXISTING nonconformity, there is no preventive action possible. Certainly you can implement correction and, potentially, corrective action. Since you are familiar with the APG, have a look at the auditing preventive action paper.

Marc said:
Who/What is the "ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group"?

Follow this link.

qusys · Aug 5, 2011

lakshit said:
Hello friends,
I'd like to know whether the Non Conformity report should ask for Preventive Action, apart from Correction & Corrective Action.
I am asking this question because recently in a Lead Auditor course on ISO 9001:2008, the trainer said that it is incorrect to ask for Preventive Action on the Non Conformity form. As an example he sited the document "ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on: "Documenting a Nonconformity", where there is no mention of Preventive Action required once a non conformity is raised.

Thanks
Lakshit Seth

He is right. In the form to respond to finding of certification body I have never seen the section "preventive action".
However, in the internal audit form, we have foreseen a section "preventive action" for our organization, just a think about if a best preactices can be transferred to similar processes/products :bigwave:

Randy · Aug 5, 2011

Sheeeesh!

Preventive action in this case is nothing more than those actions in order to prevent recurrence within a corrective action.

8.5.2 Corrective action
The organization shall take action to eliminate the causes of nonconformities in order to prevent recurrence....c) evaluating the need for action to ensure that nonconformities do not recur,

Remember, we have to correct...fix the problem, and then take action to prevent recurrence

Folks need to quit making this difficult....

Sidney Vianna · Aug 5, 2011

Randy said:
Preventive action in this case is nothing more than those actions in order to prevent recurrence within a corrective action.

Promoting that line of thought just ADDS to the confusion between corrective and preventive action.

Both corrective and preventive actions are clearly defined in ISO 9000. If you allow the term preventive action to mean what corrective action is, in a nonconformity review form, you are just confusing people.

Jim Wynne · Aug 5, 2011

Sidney Vianna said:
Promoting that line of thought just ADDS to the confusion between corrective and preventive action.

Both corrective and preventive actions are clearly defined in ISO 9000. If you allow the term preventive action to mean what corrective action is, in a nonconformity review form, you are just confusing people.

In fairness, the confusion is fomented by the standard. In the passage Randy quotes, they could have used any of a dozen or so synonyms for "prevent" if they were really concerned about the distinction being honored.

Sidney Vianna · Aug 5, 2011

Jim Wynne said:
In fairness, the confusion is fomented by the standard.

I don't disagree, but terminology IS important. That's why ISO 9000, a normative reference for ISO 9001 defines terms. If I have an ISO 9001 compliant system, which includes a nonconformity review form, and I need to name the "prevention of recurrence field" on the form, I should name it corrective action.

The fact that both preventive and corrective actions are associated with prevention of problems might be confusing, but just like in any other profession, quality practitioners must learn, use and reinforce the proper terms. Otherwise, the concept of QMS standardization is degraded.

Stijloor · Aug 5, 2011

Sidney Vianna said:
I don't disagree, but terminology IS important. That's why ISO 9000, a normative reference for ISO 9001 defines terms. If I have an ISO 9001 compliant system, which includes a nonconformity review form, and I need to name the "prevention of recurrence field" on the form, I should name it corrective action.

The fact that both preventive and corrective actions are associated with prevention of problems might be confusing, but just like in any other profession, quality practitioners must learn, use and reinforce the proper terms. Otherwise, the concept of QMS standardization is degraded.

This topic, as you all know, has been beaten to death. :mg:

To clarify, I often refer to proactive and reactive work. My Clients and Students seem to grasp their meanings much more easily... :agree1:

Sometimes it's good to use non-ISO terminology to get a point across.

Stijloor.

Non Conformity (Nonconformance) Report & Preventive Action Requirements

lakshit

Starting to get Involved

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?

lakshit

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Sidney Vianna

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qusys

Randy

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Jim Wynne

Sidney Vianna

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Stijloor

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