3rd Party Audit Comment - Identify ISO Clauses/Sub Clauses to each Process

Hi, it was brought up in our last audit to "Identify ISO clauses/Sub clauses to each process" I understand this i.e. 7.4 Purchasing, but was wondering if there was a process model that would identify all ISO clauses and sub clauses so I do not miss anything.

Re: 3rd party Audit

I ask whoever wants to know to prove that you even have to refer to a single clause...I know ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 don't look for any reference or even require the use of the standards themselves, they just say the requirements "shall" be met and I've seen more than one organization successfully meet the requirements without referring to a clause in the process.

Re: 3rd party Audit

Hi Randy, To be more specific... the auditor specified, "Review the method adopted to identify those company (Cannot mention the company name) processes which will be subjected to the annual internal audit process - identify those ISO clauses/sub clauses applicable and other company specific requirements to each process (Sales, Purchasing, etc) - see ISO19011 for specifics" - are the exact words.

Re: 3rd party Audit

Ron tollett said:

Hi Randy, To be more specific... the auditor specified, "Review the method adopted to identify those company (Cannot mention the company name) processes which will be subjected to the annual internal audit process - identify those ISO clauses/sub clauses applicable and other company specific requirements to each process (Sales, Purchasing, etc) - see ISO19011 for specifics" - are the exact words.

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Seems ambiguous to me.
Does he expect you to provide a written review or merely review them in your head and make a comparison between processes and clauses (in effect, a mental 'gap analysis')?

If a "written" review, "Show me the shall" seems to be warranted.

If mental, well . . . that's what we all do, more or less, on a continual basis (the "evaluation" that internal audits provide in written form, but even then, there is no requirement in the Standard to tie a process to a clause of the Standard in writing.

Re: 3rd party Audit

Ron tollett said:

Hi Randy, To be more specific... the auditor specified, "Review the method adopted to identify those company (Cannot mention the company name) processes which will be subjected to the annual internal audit process - identify those ISO clauses/sub clauses applicable and other company specific requirements to each process (Sales, Purchasing, etc) - see ISO19011 for specifics" - are the exact words.

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Looks like your auditor is overstepping his authority. Your audit programme has to cover all your management system but it is down to you how you structure the programme and what is covered in each audit.

It may be you haven't done a good job of showing that the whole system (and the whole standard) has been covered but the auditor has to identify what the problem is.

Good luck!

I have a small bit of experience using 19011 and I don't seem to remember it saying clauses have to be specified...Oh yeah, 19011 is a Guidance document so unless your management system specifically requires its use, or you're an accredited 3rd party CB you can round file 19011 if you choose and tell whoever to jump through smoke rings

What standard is your system certified to? Is the auditor trying to find out what was audited in internal audits?

ISO9001:2008 and yes, the auditor was looking at internal audits and the audit form had i.e. Purchasing but did not identify what part of the standard it covered.

Ron tollett said:

ISO9001:2008 and yes, the auditor was looking at internal audits and the audit form had i.e. Purchasing but did not identify what part of the standard it covered.

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As long as the requirements of the standard are addressed in the process, it doesn't matter whether there's explicit reference to the standard or not. Sometimes auditors want people to make things easier for them, and sometimes they're so used to seeing references to the standard that they seem to think it's required.

Ron tollett said:

ISO9001:2008 and yes, the auditor was looking at internal audits and the audit form had i.e. Purchasing but did not identify what part of the standard it covered.

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Did he write a non conformity versus the clause 8.2.2. b) of ISO 9001, because it was not clear what you have done to meet this clause?
As a suggestiom we have put in the internal audit report form a matrix with all the clauses of the standard and we put a cross for related audited clauses when we perform process audit, in addition to the other internal/external requirments( internal procedures, customer requirments).