Why is it so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

It just seems to take FOREVER to get action on CARs and get them truly, confidently, and completely closed out.

For example, I have a part that leaks. It's made in China. I need to order replacements with a new and improved design, get them here and test them. If they test okay, I can then CONFIDENTLY say the CAR is closed. We're talking about a months long process. Or can I close out the CAR since the re-design and new control plan look good and the supplier is generally reliable?

Another example, I have four large assemblies the customer said were dirty. I had the customer send the assemblies back and we tested them. All four parts passed the industry standard test for cleanliness, but the customer says they "cleaned" two of them before sending them back (which two, we don't know). All I can do is promise to "do better" or "be more careful." To PROVE the process is in FACT cleaner, I would need to have multiple orders shipped without further complaint--or would I? Can I close this CAR (or is it really a PAR) out now?

Does anyone else struggle with this? How do you get 'em done, closed, finished, PROVEN corrected?

PS
I've dealt with lots of suppliers that send CARs back to me with comments like, "Oh, we fired that person. The CAR is now closed." Really? Why was that person hired? Why were they so badly trained? Why did they continue working for you if their work was so bad you had to let them go? Why didn't you know the work was bad? I try not to be like that, but true root causeS analysis and proven corrective action is really hard. I feel like I'm working really hard and still not getting it done either.

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

SimpleIsGood,

In your examples I could see no reference to the root causes and their removal.

Once your problem solving teams have determined the root causes for each nonconformity you can be reasonably confident of effective corrective action when they are removed from the system to stop recurrence.

You then close the CAR and continue monitoring the effectiveness of the process for stopping recurrence of nonconformity per 8.2.3.

BTW, when testing to see if what is claimed to be a root cause actually is a root cause, ask why again. Even firing someone leaves the faulty recruiting, training and monitoring processes intact.

John

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

True corrective action to eliminate the root cause* and prevent recurrence simply takes time. the more complex the problem and its solution, the longer it will take.

Is you concern with the time it takes or that you are not getting serious attention to your CARs?

I have seen too many trivial CARs that the recipient simply can't (and probably shouldn't) be bothered with. these take a long time because no one is working on them.

I have seen many inneffective - but really fast - responses because the owner jsut slaps any old repsone/action on the thing to get it off his desk.

I have seen many inneffective corrective acitons becuase the owner simply didn't have any real idea how to solve a problem...

I have seen many very effective CARs that achieve containment quickly, get to an understandign of the causal mechanism and apply a solution that actually works well. I have seen these take anywhere from a couple of days to two years. I never really cared about how long it took as I knew the teams were working diligently (50-100% of their time on it) and it was done WELL.

Solving problems is not taught in our educational system and most post education trainnig simply perpetuates the same old tired 'brainstorming, scientific guessing, test your solution' approach. And despite the relatively recent use of 'six sigma' we really haven't changed that - we just added alot of sophisticated statistics that require expensive statistical software. Its a shame...

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

SimpleIsGood said:

Does anyone else struggle with this? How do you get 'em done, closed, finished, PROVEN corrected?

Click to expand...

This should be defined in your CA document. You need to have a solid RCA process in place to find the actual Root Cause. Then, you need to have a good definition of what that Corrective Action will be. Finally, you need to have a good definition of exactly what constitutes the Verification that will allow you the confidence to close the CA. This may or may not contain a timeline (zero occurrences of the defect over x amount of time, for example).

I generally worry less about the timeline than I do about the effectiveness of the action.

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

SimpleIsGood said:

Or can I close out the CAR since the re-design and new control plan look good and the supplier is generally reliable?

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I don't see why you would rush to close the CAR BEFORE you have evidence that the problem has been fixed.

Long time to close a supplier CAR is much less problematic than "believing" the problem has been solved, without having the facts to show that. Faith-based quality is not advisable. That is why we need data and facts.

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

Bev D said:

Solving problems is not taught in our educational system and most post education trainnig simply perpetuates the same old tired 'brainstorming, scientific guessing, test your solution' approach. And despite the relatively recent use of 'six sigma' we really haven't changed that - we just added alot of sophisticated statistics that require expensive statistical software. Its a shame...

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

Bev D said:

Is your concern with the time it takes, or
that you are not getting serious attention to your CARs?

Click to expand...

Yes! Both!

I guess I'm frustrated because the problems are tough to define, tough to fix and not getting enough attention (in my humble opinion). CARs pile up, and more CARs pile on top of them (okay, there are only a dozen of them, but they seem like a swarm of bees).

I don't WANT to rush them, but I'm starting to feel pressed and wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or if this is just a tough slog for everybody who cares about getting things down right.

Re: Why is ii so hard to close out the CAPAs ?

I feel your pain, bro. Seems like most often the true root cause correction involves a design change or an equipment modification, both of which require customer approval (which also requires testing and verification of the new parts, and THEIR customer's approval...). And usually its all the result of the customer's less-than-optimal design in the first place.

IMHO, if your leaky part design has been modified, and everyone on the team is convinced that the new parts will be better, and everyone knows the timeline to receive the new parts, then I think you should close out the CAR and congratulate the team. The new parts will have to go through the usual approval processes, at which point you will either be vindicated or you will open another CAR.

Well I understand that validation and approval of changes - even when the need for the change is sourced back to the Customer - is time consuming. However, as the OEM Customer I can't tell you how valuable this process is. We've been burned far too many times by a 'simple' change at our supplier that went horribly wrong. Of course while I am adament about V&V and approval of changes, I also don't exect my suppliers to bear the financial burden of a change I sourced...but this is off topic.

I really don't understand - or advocate, or allow my suppliers - the 'need' to close a CAR before the solution is actually implemented and shown to be effective. I have seen too many inneffective solutions or solutions that simply don't get implemented because now the 'pressure is off'. There is nothing to gain by closing a CAR before it is implemented and shown to be effective. CARs aren't busy work. They are an essential part of how we continually improve our processes and products. In my experience, those who advocate closing CARs before they are truly done, are those that care more abotu gettgin the paperwork off their desks than they do in solving real problems...no offense.

deming said a "a bad system will defeat a good person every time". this is usually what is occuring with CARs. the focus is on 'time' and those who are owners have no real problem solving tools....

so to SimpleIsGood I would say research, train and lead problem solving with your CAR owners. Make sure the CARs you issue are worth solving; relegating the minor effect stuff to correction only.

Also see: Open CARs (Corrective Action Requests) and 8D Processes