ISO 14001 - Periodic External Audit by Consultant Requirement?

Outside Consultant Issues and Problems

As most of the people who are on here are also Outside External Auditors and Consultants, maybe you all can help me with my "problem"????
I recently attended ISO 14001 Lead Auditor training with Mr. Randy (great instructor by the way) My company was also just recommended for certification a week ago. We accomplished this in 6 months, that is an accomplishment for us trust me. Our consultant was how shall I say in a "God complex". First of all she had no ISO implementation experience. We paid to send her to Randy ( I dont blame you for her Mr. Randy) she then implemented our program. I will say hands down it is the best document control system I have ever seen. It is the rest of the program that is lacking. She is basically holding us hostage. She has convinced my President that she is required for the next year to make sure we maintain the programs she has implemented. She states that ISO requires us to have external audits periodically. Are these not the ongoing surveillance audits that our registrar will do? Can our internal lead auditor (me) not do ongoing continuing audits of departments, documents and such? I guess I am asking how do I convince the powers that be that she is unnecessary at $275 per hour for 8 hours per month and then $400 per hour every quarter for a full audit? Can she claim to do a full audit, without being a certified Lead Auditor. Ok I am done whining, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I'm sure that she'd love to have you continue to pay for her services, but there is no requirement to justify it. Your internal audits, management reviews and corrective/preventive actions should be what you rely on to keep the EMS on track. Suggest to her that if the systems she helped to implement are so weak that they need a babysitter for a year, then maybe you should be thinking about finding someone else...

I am confident in the system, and I am confident in my abilities. However, the President will believe anything she tells him as he has no clue. He sees her as an "expert". A new development-----she has emailed me her schedule for the rest of the year. Tah Dah. She is claiming she will need to be on site for 40 hours. In 2 months to maintain and system???!!!??? Now I feel completely inadequate.....

Squid said:

I guess I am asking how do I convince the powers that be that she is unnecessary at $275 per hour

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I'm a lot cheaper than this!

Hey Squid Howya doing?

You say I trained this consultant person? Tell me it's not true!!

I'm gonna try to remain objective here, but it will be tough.

Remember what I said about the standard? If it ain't in there it doesn't exist.

1st....there is absolutely no requirement (especially by the ISO) for any type of 3rd party audit, unless an organization is being required to have a registered system for some reason or voluntarily chooses to do so. That's it.

2nd....that person sure didn't learn that load of bilge (including the costing) from me. Normally what you should expect is anywhere from $600 - $1000 per day or $75 - $125 per hour...that's pretty much standard. For someone to demand that rate they better have some REAL GOOD bona fides there bro'.

3rd....if she helped to design and implement the system as you say, the validity of her audits (if she is claiming time for RAB certification) is worth about as much as a nice and hefty soiled diaper.

4th....yes, you are qualified to perform the audits, and quite honestly you have the skills to develop an internal auditor program and manage it, just keep your eyes on the target and use ISO 19011 as your guide.

5th....yes, your registrar is being paid big bucks to perform ongoing surveillance audits so therefore there is no need to have another 3rd party do the same work twice, just perform your internal ones as we discussed.

Are we talking about someone whose name starts with "Z". If so, this person misrepresented herself to me as a RAB QMS-LA.

Thanks for the great week in Houston. Keep in touch here and listen to these other guys too.

Marc said:

I'm a lot cheaper than this!

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But worth more. Right, Marc?

If this is the person I'm thinking of...you betcha!!!

Wes Bucey said:

But worth more. Right, Marc?

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I don't know about that...

Randy, Marc, Howste, and everyone else:

Squid's situation is kinda disturbing. How often, in your experience, does this kind of thing go on in the quality/environmental world? Please tell me its rare for people to misrepresent thier credentials, ability and/or experience.

If the profession has too many snake oilers running around, we're doomed.

Craig

Squid said:

...First of all she had no ISO implementation experience. We paid to send her to Randy ( I dont blame you for her Mr. Randy) she then implemented our program...

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Can I ask "How come?". Do you know why they would do that - was she a former employee or something?

As the requirements change or our organizational goals require that I learn about new standards/regulations, my company pays to keep me up to date as necessary. But, I work for them already - full time payroll employee.

I want her gig!!

Welcome to the cove