The value of Philip Crosby Associates classes like PONC and CCO, etc.

The company I work for got recently heavily into Philip Crosby and the Philip Crosby Associates and I was wondering if there are any people out there that have any experience with their classes like PONC and CCO, etc.

Any opinions positive or negative are appreciated.

Re: Philip Crosby Associates

Limburger,

First, welcome to the Cove!

The company I am with went through this process about 15 years ago, so I am not sure if my comments still are valid.

That said, I think that Crosby is a good starting point for a company trying to change their culture from an inspection-based quality system to a system more in tune with TQM. As with any "guru", I think that Crosby has strengths and weaknesses.

As far as the classes themselves go, I took the Manager's class i Atlanta, and the SQC class in Orlando. Compared to other classes I have been in from other organizations, I would have to say that they are well prepared, and the instructors I have had have been good.

Also, they eat well at lunch. One day at the Ritz in Atlanta, even.

Waste of time....Crosby milked the Quality is Free mantra. Crosby believes if you pay attention to something it will improve. Does not have a good toolkit to help facilitate the change. Is very popular because he does not use any statisitical analysis.

Statistical Steven said:

Waste of time....Crosby milked the Quality is Free mantra. Crosby believes if you pay attention to something it will improve. Does not have a good toolkit to help facilitate the change. Is very popular because he does not use any statisitical analysis.

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Yep, and that is why I said that it is good for an organization trying to start a change of culture. Also, other "guru" teachings should be considered. I stand by my earlier post.

If a company does not have a sophisticated, mature system in place, then starting with Crosby may make perfect sense.

I have not had the chance to take part in this sort of lessons, but I have read most books of Philip Crosby,who initiated the sense of zero defect first.
And I think his idea is great and his method is feasible.

We are now in the 5th week of the CCO (Creating a Capable Organization) class and I will post in 3 weeks again when the class is done. Just in case someone from PCA reads this forum and I don't want to jeapordize any scores or feedback we are getting from this class.

What other quality programs have you had experiences with? How do they compare to Crosby?

Do they have more effective tools or guidlines? Do they have different Philosophies?

Any opinion is appreciated on the Quality improvement process.

I have never been a fan of the Philip Crosby concepts. I find there are other tools that impact improvement much quicker with less overhead for most organizations. As with any quality tool, its value is based on how bad you are performing before you use it. If you stink, you can find huge economic benefits. If you are great, the incremental benefit may not pay for the training. The better your systems are, the more important it is to use the correct tool to correct the specific problems you have. Cost of Quality concepts are great if you have not paid attention to your costs. BUT, the systems you have for collecting cost data have to be accurate for it to be worth the effort at all. Otherwise, you spend time trying to get the system to spit out meaningful information instead of fixing problems that you likely have good information on. There is a lot of overhead involved to achieve that goal - usually from departments that are not in tune with the process. I have rarely seen systems that can accurately collect the cost data to the point that meaningful decisions can be made. Usually, they missed something - usually a lot.

I believe good, solid Advanced Quality Planning training would solve the fundamental problems that plague most companies. It is the correct, honest use of this planning that will avoid profit losses and rejections. Philip Crosby's system's only impact on this area is to measure its preventive cost. Take the time to ahead of time to think through the manufacturing system that you have to live with for a long time. Don't just "throw the process over the wall", and walk away once the first product falls off the line. Live with the process development during its initiation until everyone is satisfied that the process is fully understood and working up to expectations. That is where the money is made or lost. Final note: this only works if uppermost management buys in, and gets the salesmen to understand it has to work that way. Shortcuts will destroy the benefit quickly.

Limburger said:

What other quality programs have you had experiences with? How do they compare to Crosby?

Do they have more effective tools or guidlines? Do they have different Philosophies?

Any opinion is appreciated on the Quality improvement process.

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I happen to like the Deming approach, and have had some good experience with it. That said, if you look at the various "gurus" there are rarely any areas where they disagree. They just have different perspectives.

Craig H. said:

I happen to like the Deming approach, and have had some good experience with it. That said, if you look at the various "gurus" there are rarely any areas where they disagree. They just have different perspectives.

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I could not disagree with you more on this point. The different gurus differ greatly in approach and perspective. Crosby uses slogans such as "Zero Defects" while Deming is against any slogan or exhortations. This is just one example of the differences.