Hardness Testing - Rockwell C, on 2" OD x 1" ID Tube of SAE 4140 steel

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
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We're doing a hardness test, Rockwell C, on 2" OD x 1" ID tube of SAE 4140 steel that is supposed to be hardened and tempered to a 32-36 hardness. We are seeing a different hardness on the outside vs. inside, almost like the steel has a "skin". Once we get ~ .025" or more under the "skin" we are seeing a higher hardness reading.

Has anyone seen this before? Is there a guideline/standard as to how to avoid this - i.e. a set amount of material that should be removed before testing? Any help is appreciated by a hardness testing greenhorn. :bigwave:
 
C

Cordon - 2007

Sounds like decarb to me. :whip:

Added: Sorry for the lack of info...getting ready to go home.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
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We're doing a hardness test, Rockwell C, on 2" OD x 1" ID tube of SAE 4140 steel that is supposed to be hardened and tempered to a 32-36 hardness. We are seeing a different hardness on the outside vs. inside, almost like the steel has a "skin". Once we get ~ .025" or more under the "skin" we are seeing a higher hardness reading.

Has anyone seen this before? Is there a guideline/standard as to how to avoid this - i.e. a set amount of material that should be removed before testing? Any help is appreciated by a hardness testing greenhorn. :bigwave:


I have a question:

When you are checking the outside, are you removing any scale or something approx. .001 deep? The inside should be similarly, checked the same way, I think.

I had a similar issue on some parts (4140 Tube) that a previous company was making for the Government and they require a lower hardness than the standard allowed. We could not get reliable tensile strength of various sample we had to submit to a test lab. We finally decided to heat treat the 4140 in a salt bath. At that point we started to get acceptable samples within the stated range of strength and a more consistent hardness reading (even though the Heat Treater was also performing the hardness, but validated/verified by the Government Rep). That solved the heat treat issue. We still had other issues to contend with.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Leader
Super Moderator
My small experience with this is that anything that's drawn or extruded will have a harder surface.

We use bar stock and our matieral suppliers provide us with midradius (taken at the mid point of the radius of the profile) hardness because of this.
If you cut the tube is there enough surface area on the profile to test?
 
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Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
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Removing just a few thousandths of discolored area still resulted in a low hardness reading -- we had to go to ~ .025" removal to get the same reading the supplier got and we got on the thickness of a sawed-off piece. I did not do the testing myself, or my curiosity would have had me do tests with no removal, discoloration only removal, and then every .005" after that until it flattened out.
 
K

Kevin H

Decarburization is a natural part of processing steel - typically, there are limits for the allowable depth of decarb built into specifications, especially, ASTM and SAE specifications.
You'll decarburize steel when you reheat it for shape processing, such as rolling from a billet to a bar, or during heat treating. Typically the only method to ensure that you’ve eliminated it after shape processing is surface removal of some sort such as surface grinding.

With heat treating, you have options to insure that you don’t add to any preexisting decarb. Options include processing in salt baths, the use of protective atmospheres such as endothermic, nitrogen/methanol, nitrogen/natural gas, or vacuum will either prevent or minimize generation of additional decarburization. Depending on specifications, sometimes you can get away with just diluting the furnace atmosphere with nitrogen. They’re all more expensive options then just processing in an open air furnace heated either electrically, with radiant tubes, or with open fired burners.

Induction hardening and due to the decreased time at temperature will also decrease the amount of decarburization produced. In general, the higher the processing temperature and the longer time at temperature, the more decarb is generated. Also, it’s not a linear function.

To learn about Rockwell hardness testing, get a copy of ASTM E18, the Standard Test Methods for Rockwell Hardness and Rockwell Superficial Hardness of Metallic Materials. The Rockwell C test is a macro material test – typical indentation diameter at a 32 Rockwell C hardness is going to be around .050inches (I’m extrapolating from a couple of measurements taken on indentations on 26 C and 45 C test blocks) Rockwell tests are supposed to be a minimum of 3 indentation diameters away from each other, otherwise you do not get a valid reading. You also need to be a minimum of 2 diameters away from an edge or you don’t get an accurate, valid reading. For round test pieces, you should be using a “V-grooved anvil that will support the specimen with the axis of the V-groove directly under the indenter or on hard, parallel, twin cylinders properly positioned and clamped in their base.”

I’d also recommend getting a copy of ASTM A370, Standard Test Methods and Definitions for Mechanical Testing of Steel Products.

Note also, that ASTM A370, for testing bar products a minimum surface removal of 0.015” is called for to provide for accurate hardness penetration and for tubes, ASTM A370 notes that the hardness test is typically taken on the inside surface, a flat on the outside surface, or on the wall cross-section depending on the product limitation.

I suspect that you are encountering decarb, and that it is affecting your surface readings – The question is whether the specification you’re working to permits a level of decarb, and if so how much. Personally, a level of 0.025” on a 2 “ tube doesn’t sound excessive to me, but it may be depending on the specifications you’re working to.
 
C

Cordon - 2007

Decarburization is a natural part of processing steel - typically, there are limits for the allowable depth of decarb built into specifications, especially, ASTM and SAE specifications.
You'll decarburize steel when you reheat it for shape processing, such as rolling from a billet to a bar, or during heat treating. Typically the only method to ensure that you’ve eliminated it after shape processing is surface removal of some sort such as surface grinding.

With heat treating, you have options to insure that you don’t add to any preexisting decarb. Options include processing in salt baths, the use of protective atmospheres such as endothermic, nitrogen/methanol, nitrogen/natural gas, or vacuum will either prevent or minimize generation of additional decarburization. Depending on specifications, sometimes you can get away with just diluting the furnace atmosphere with nitrogen. They’re all more expensive options then just processing in an open air furnace heated either electrically, with radiant tubes, or with open fired burners.

Induction hardening and due to the decreased time at temperature will also decrease the amount of decarburization produced. In general, the higher the processing temperature and the longer time at temperature, the more decarb is generated. Also, it’s not a linear function.

To learn about Rockwell hardness testing, get a copy of ASTM E18, the Standard Test Methods for Rockwell Hardness and Rockwell Superficial Hardness of Metallic Materials. The Rockwell C test is a macro material test – typical indentation diameter at a 32 Rockwell C hardness is going to be around .050inches (I’m extrapolating from a couple of measurements taken on indentations on 26 C and 45 C test blocks) Rockwell tests are supposed to be a minimum of 3 indentation diameters away from each other, otherwise you do not get a valid reading. You also need to be a minimum of 2 diameters away from an edge or you don’t get an accurate, valid reading. For round test pieces, you should be using a “V-grooved anvil that will support the specimen with the axis of the V-groove directly under the indenter or on hard, parallel, twin cylinders properly positioned and clamped in their base.”

I’d also recommend getting a copy of ASTM A370, Standard Test Methods and Definitions for Mechanical Testing of Steel Products.

Note also, that ASTM A370, for testing bar products a minimum surface removal of 0.015” is called for to provide for accurate hardness penetration and for tubes, ASTM A370 notes that the hardness test is typically taken on the inside surface, a flat on the outside surface, or on the wall cross-section depending on the product limitation.

I suspect that you are encountering decarb, and that it is affecting your surface readings – The question is whether the specification you’re working to permits a level of decarb, and if so how much. Personally, a level of 0.025” on a 2 “ tube doesn’t sound excessive to me, but it may be depending on the specifications you’re working to.


Now that's a wealth of information! :applause: Great job!
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
Decarburization is a natural part of processing steel - typically, there are limits for the allowable depth of decarb built into specifications, especially, ASTM and SAE specifications.
You'll decarburize steel when you reheat it for shape processing, such as rolling from a billet to a bar, or during heat treating. Typically the only method to ensure that you’ve eliminated it after shape processing is surface removal of some sort such as surface grinding.

With heat treating, you have options to insure that you don’t add to any preexisting decarb. Options include processing in salt baths, the use of protective atmospheres such as endothermic, nitrogen/methanol, nitrogen/natural gas, or vacuum will either prevent or minimize generation of additional decarburization. Depending on specifications, sometimes you can get away with just diluting the furnace atmosphere with nitrogen. They’re all more expensive options then just processing in an open air furnace heated either electrically, with radiant tubes, or with open fired burners.

Induction hardening and due to the decreased time at temperature will also decrease the amount of decarburization produced. In general, the higher the processing temperature and the longer time at temperature, the more decarb is generated. Also, it’s not a linear function.

To learn about Rockwell hardness testing, get a copy of ASTM E18, the Standard Test Methods for Rockwell Hardness and Rockwell Superficial Hardness of Metallic Materials. The Rockwell C test is a macro material test – typical indentation diameter at a 32 Rockwell C hardness is going to be around .050inches (I’m extrapolating from a couple of measurements taken on indentations on 26 C and 45 C test blocks) Rockwell tests are supposed to be a minimum of 3 indentation diameters away from each other, otherwise you do not get a valid reading. You also need to be a minimum of 2 diameters away from an edge or you don’t get an accurate, valid reading. For round test pieces, you should be using a “V-grooved anvil that will support the specimen with the axis of the V-groove directly under the indenter or on hard, parallel, twin cylinders properly positioned and clamped in their base.”

I’d also recommend getting a copy of ASTM A370, Standard Test Methods and Definitions for Mechanical Testing of Steel Products.

Note also, that ASTM A370, for testing bar products a minimum surface removal of 0.015” is called for to provide for accurate hardness penetration and for tubes, ASTM A370 notes that the hardness test is typically taken on the inside surface, a flat on the outside surface, or on the wall cross-section depending on the product limitation.

I suspect that you are encountering decarb, and that it is affecting your surface readings – The question is whether the specification you’re working to permits a level of decarb, and if so how much. Personally, a level of 0.025” on a 2 “ tube doesn’t sound excessive to me, but it may be depending on the specifications you’re working to.

A very helpful post! Thanks very much!!!!
 
S

Steels

If this is a decarb issue I cant' help but wounder if the I.D. had stock removed after heat treat. If it did not then there is a bigger issue then just decarb and if you must remove .025" stock on the O.D.before you can generated a good hardness this would be the most decarb I have ever heard of. As a rule a normal amount of decarb on hot rolled material is about .010-.015. This decarb layer is reduced during heat treat by using a carbon rich atmosphere at 40 carbon. This in turn will carbon restor the product and give you the proper hardness when quenched and tempered. I think it is going to be necessary to destory a part and look at the structure under a microscope in order to determine the cause of your problem
 
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