Standard Root Causes in a process orientated engineering company

Hi,

We have received a new software program for handling NCRs but part of this software requires that the person reporting the NCR should log the root cause, choosing from a drop down list. I must enter the basic data for the drop down list and am finding it very difficult to come up with 5 root causes that will be both useful and cover most situations in a process orientated engineering company.

Previously we have had:

Training
Lack of Communication/Information
Attitude
Unclear resposibility
Malfunction/Equipment failure

I have thought about including Training, work processes, coommunication of information/requirements but then I get stuck, trying to think about insufficient work tools and equipment failure.

We had more root causes previously but were told by our auditor to cut it back to 4 or 5.

Please help!!! I have used the last two days going round in circles on this matter.

Re: Standard Root Causes

My apology for the harshness of my post, I think it is an utter nonsense to have predefined root causes whereas the whole point of this exercise is to find them and kill them all.
Cheers!

Re: Standard Root Causes

Not sure which industry you're in/ standard you're being audited to, but I had picked up this table here at Elsmar a while back, and found it useful for classifying RCA without being too constraining on the investigation & detail which are required. This offers up seven categories (which seem pretty solid), & which contain further sub categories:

Hope this helps

Re: Standard Root Causes

alloyd said:

Hi,

We have received a new software program for handling NCRs but part of this software requires that the person reporting the NCR should log the root cause, choosing from a drop down list. I must enter the basic data for the drop down list and am finding it very difficult to come up with 5 root causes that will be both useful and cover most situations in a process orientated engineering company.

Previously we have had:

Training
Lack of Communication/Information
Attitude
Unclear resposibility
Malfunction/Equipment failure

I have thought about including Training, work processes, coommunication of information/requirements but then I get stuck, trying to think about insufficient work tools and equipment failure.

We had more root causes previously but were told by our auditor to cut it back to 4 or 5.

Please help!!! I have used the last two days going round in circles on this matter.

Click to expand...

"Standard root causes" is an oxymoron. A root cause cannot be "standard" in a working QMS, because the first time it is encountered it would be eliminated via corrective action.

If you are encountering your listed causes repeatedly then your corrective action process is not working. It may be that your folks don't know how to discover root causes, or perhaps you are listing corrections as corrective actions. Whatever it is, you need to find the root cause of this issue. Finding it and eliminating it will help you with all the others.

Re: Standard Root Causes

Are they really root causes or just causes? What I mean is if you limit yourself to just 5 causes for failure you will inevitably end up with a degree of generality. My understanding of root cause analysis is to drill down (a phrase I've read on here a few times now and like) into the causes to find the root cause at a deeper level. Tools like the 5 whys do that. Ask yourself why something happened, than ask again and again because your first thought won't be the real root cause.

Well that is what I always understood root causes to be, a little deeper than the usual causes that are identified.

Re: Standard Root Causes

Thanks Pancho, I have just started to look for a local mental correction facility for me and myself to see if may be me is the one who went crazy, but seems to me I am okay for the time being.
Cheers!

Re: Standard Root Causes

alloyd said:

Hi,

We have received a new software program for handling NCRs but part of this software requires that the person reporting the NCR should log the root cause, choosing from a drop down list. I must enter the basic data for the drop down list and am finding it very difficult to come up with 5 root causes that will be both useful and cover most situations in a process orientated engineering company.

Previously we have had:

Training
Lack of Communication/Information
Attitude
Unclear responsibility
Malfunction/Equipment failure

I have thought about including Training, work processes, coommunication of information/requirements but then I get stuck, trying to think about insufficient work tools and equipment failure.

We had more root causes previously but were told by our auditor to cut it back to 4 or 5.

Please help!!! I have used the last two days going round in circles on this matter.

Click to expand...

I'd venture to say that only one (or two at best) of these five choices given can be acceptable as root causes. Training and lack of information are rarely considered root causes; they have causes themselves.

Having a drop-down of "standard" root causes is very strange - unfortunately, the designer of the software missed the boat on the meaning of root cause. And I'm amazed that an auditor would give you such an instruction, because that's waaay outside the bounds of their duties. Was this a third party auditor?

Re: Standard Root Causes

alloyd said:

Hi,

We have received a new software program for handling NCRs but part of this software requires that the person reporting the NCR should log the root cause, choosing from a drop down list. I must enter the basic data for the drop down list and am finding it very difficult to come up with 5 root causes that will be both useful and cover most situations in a process orientated engineering company.

Previously we have had:

Training
Lack of Communication/Information
Attitude
Unclear resposibility
Malfunction/Equipment failure

I have thought about including Training, work processes, coommunication of information/requirements but then I get stuck, trying to think about insufficient work tools and equipment failure.

We had more root causes previously but were told by our auditor to cut it back to 4 or 5.

Please help!!! I have used the last two days going round in circles on this matter.

Click to expand...

Any software that binds a "root cause" field to a drop-down list instead of a free-form field is poorly designed software, IMO. Even if it allowed for inclusion of list entries by users, more naive users might be inclined to select the closest choice which may not be totally accurate for the situation being investigated.

I also find it hard to believe that your auditor (whoever they are) has sufficient objective evidence (and without that, even the authority) to demand that you scale back your list of root causes. I do not know of any existing requirement within any standard, and you absolutely do not have to accept what the auditor says if they do not have verifiable and reproducible objective evidence to reinforce their findings. This is called an "evidence-based approach" and it is one of the fundamental principles of auditing in general. Remember that auditors are fallible too. Ask them to show you the specific requirement before you accept responsibility for anything.

And lastly - the determination of root causes should only be limited by the mind's scientific thought processes - root causes should not be "categorized" for convenience as each situation is unique.

Brian

Re: Standard Root Causes

Just another gimmick to hood-wink people out of money and for folks with an inclination to not break sweat

totally agree with those who say that there are no 'typical' root causes and that your auditor is not in touch with reality.

what you listed are not root causes, they are arbitrary causal 'categories' which are not actionable at all.

If you really need a 'useful' set of cause categories I suggest these:
- physics
- those darn humans
- mysticism

and be done with it.