Non-Conformance due to obsolete ISO/TS 16949 audit checklist

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
The QSA for ISO/TS 16949 IS "CHECKLIST FOR ISO/TS 16949 QUALITY SYSTEM ASSESSMENT, First Edition 1999-10-01" from AIAG IATF

Can anyone tell me when the document was obsoleted? It would help me in determining a root cause I am investigating.

Thanks,
Doug
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The "item driven" checklist was obsoleted with the release of the " Rules for achieving IATF recognition ".

Quote from the " rules " :

The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a "clause" or a "section" driven checklist.

Unquote

The rules were released in May 2004 and became effective Dec 2004.

Best regards,

Antoine
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The "item driven" checklist was obsoleted with the release of the " Rules for achieving IATF recognition ".

Quote from the " rules " :

The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a "clause" or a "section" driven checklist.

Unquote

The rules were released in May 2004 and became effective Dec 2004.

Best regards,

Antoine


I appreciate the effort to help me, but the rules are for the the TS-16949 registration scheme - correct? These rules do not take the place of the QSA for TS-16949, do they? I would like to know when the Quality System Assessment for TS-16949 was obsoleted.

Thanks,
Doug
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Leader
Admin
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The QSA for TS is not like the QSA of QS9000 which was a stand alone document.
The document only had relevance when the rules demanded them.
Antoine's dates are correct
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

I appreciate the effort to help me, but the rules are for the the TS-16949 registration scheme - correct? These rules do not take the place of the QSA for TS-16949, do they? I would like to know when the Quality System Assessment for TS-16949 was obsoleted.

Thanks,
Doug

IMO there has never been a QSA manual for ISO TS 16949.
The QSA released by AIAG was for QS9000 and will be obseleted in Dec 2006 as will the standard.

Any ITEM - CLAUSE or SECTION driven checklist for ISO TS was obsoleted in 2004 the way I described in the previous post.

Best regards,

Antoine
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The QSA for TS is not like the QSA of QS9000 which was a stand alone document.
The document only had relevance when the rules demanded them.
Antoine's dates are correct

Howard,

What do you mean it is not a stand alone document?

Are you telling me that the QSA Checklist to ISO/TS-16949:2002 is not obsolete?

If it is not obsolete, then why is it not visible on the AIAG Website?
http://www.aiag.org/publications/quality/iatfquality.cfm
Should I be using another source to verify what the 'latest & greatest' is for the IATF/AIAG Documents/

Here I am trying to investigate a Nonconformance from the registrar saying that it is obsolete.

Again, is the document obsolete or not?

Thanks,
Doug
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Leader
Admin
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

When I say it is not a stand alone document, I mean that without the reference from the rules it is meaningless.
In QS the QSA was one of the "required" documents. There is no requirement for the QSA in TS and it was only relevant when referenced by the Rules.

What exactly is the NC?
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The "item driven" checklist was obsoleted with the release of the " Rules for achieving IATF recognition ".

Quote from the " rules " :

The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a "clause" or a "section" driven checklist.

Unquote

The rules were released in May 2004 and became effective Dec 2004.

Best regards,

Antoine

Antoine,

Okay, I must be a little dense this morning. So the QSA for TS-16949 became obsolete sometime between May 2004 and December 2004, even though the forward to the book says "it is effective for the life of this standard."

Do I have it right now?

Thanks,
Doug
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The QSA book you have available was never intended to be used for ISO TS16949.

It was released besides QS9000 and to be used for QS9000 environments.
Indeed the QSA lives as long as QS9000 lives.

For ISO TS16949 ( based on the process approach of ISO 9001 version 2000 ) this QSA should have never been used. Look at my previous post # 10.
For ISO TS16949 you have to use the process approach (instead of the item approach like in the QSA )

Best regards,

Antoine
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

When I say it is not a stand alone document, I mean that without the reference from the rules it is meaningless.
In QS the QSA was one of the "required" documents. There is no requirement for the QSA in TS and it was only relevant when referenced by the Rules.

What exactly is the NC?

Howard,

The system I am currently working with (a little over a month now) received the following NC in a Periodic Audit performed in July 2006:

"The procedure for internal audits refers to a document of external origin that is an obsolete document. Section 3.2 refers to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for ISO/TS 16949 as a basis for internal audits. Note that this checklist was not used during the most recent audit."

The NC was identified as a 'Control of Documents' (4.2.3) finding.

Thanks,

Doug
 
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