Getting the EASA Part 21 J - DOA Certification

L

Latcedric

Hello everyone,

First message on this great forum : therefore I firstly make a large congratulation for such a large mine of information !

I am working for a large electrical harness supplier that wish to diversify its customers. We've been working for decades under the DOA of the aircraft manufacturers, but we are now thinking to get this certification on our own. And it does not look that simple !

I have thus a couple of questions :

- how do we select the categories of DOA ? Does being design-autonomous from the clients means a DOA 1 ? In which group is a harness ? It's both a large component, but not extremely complex !

- what is "a product" according to the EASA ? We produce similar harnesses but very few of our products are exactly identical ! How can a certification be then made per product ?

- how long does it usually take for a 3/400 employees organisation to do adequate actions for this certification knowing that we are already POA certified, ISO9001 and in the business for years.

- About the costs ? I have understood from the Part21 GM that a DOA requires 4/5 people full-time. What are the usual investments prior to the normal DOA activities ? Number of people implied ? Costs of training ? Toward the EASA ? Any other costs ?

- Are there any alternatives ? What are the pros and cons of the ADOA ?

Thanks for the answers ! I'm kind of sinking under the messy EU documentations ...

Regards / Cedric
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
Do we have any EASA knowledgable folks here who can help with this one?
 
L

Latcedric

Do we have any EASA knowledgable folks here who can help with this one?
Thanks for supporting Marc ! Any EU certifications specialists ? Thanks for any help !
 
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A

Angelika

Hi Cedric,

regards from the South to the North of Germany! It has taken a long time until a German joined our part 21 discussions! Welcome!

Sorry, I didn't see your thread earlier - but you know, summer finally has arrived also in the South of Germany so I tried not to spend too much additional time in front of my computer.....!


Hello everyone,

First message on this great forum : therefore I firstly make a large congratulation for such a large mine of information !

I am working for a large electrical harness supplier that wish to diversify its customers. We've been working for decades under the DOA of the aircraft manufacturers, but we are now thinking to get this certification on our own. And it does not look that simple !

I have thus a couple of questions :

- how do we select the categories of DOA ? Does being design-autonomous from the clients means a DOA 1 ? In which group is a harness ? It's both a large component, but not extremely complex !

please have a look into the EASA fees and charges - the regulations 593/2007 and/or 1356/2008 explain the different categories.

- what is "a product" according to the EASA ? We produce similar harnesses but very few of our products are exactly identical ! How can a certification be then made per product ?
a product is an aircraft/rotorcraft, engine or propeller - any other equipment is defined as parts and appliances. The design of your harnesses may be approved via a minor or major change (STC) on aircraft level.

- how long does it usually take for a 3/400 employees organisation to do adequate actions for this certification knowing that we are already POA certified, ISO9001 and in the business for years.
in most of the cases between 12 and 18 months, sometimes quicker, sometimes longer - mainly depending on the quality of your handbook and of course, the ressources of your company

- About the costs ? I have understood from the Part21 GM that a DOA requires 4/5 people full-time. What are the usual investments prior to the normal DOA activities ? Number of people implied ? Costs of training ? Toward the EASA ? Any other costs ?
EASA cost: please refer to the fees and charges regulation mentioned above - a new fees and charges regulation with a considerable increase is expected to be published in the next months though....
Number of people required largely depends on your scope of approval
You may require training on Part 21, certification specifations.... - depending on the experience and knowledge of the persons involved in the DOA

- Are there any alternatives ? What are the pros and cons of the ADOA ?
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"I have not yet supported an ADOA for changes/repairs on aircraft level, just ETSO. However, I think you could say that the ADOA is the adequate approval if you just do design work from time to time. As far as I understand the requirements to the organization are simplified. I think there are no surveillance fees (at least presently) and you just pay for the individual project (STC etc).[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]The AMC/GM published by EASA explains as follows:
AMC 21A.14(b)
Alternative Procedures
Alternative procedures are an acceptable means to demonstrate design capability in the cases
described in 21A.14, 21A.112B or 21A.432B. This concept is the implementation, in the context of
specific projects
, of procedures required in Subpart J DOA, to ensure that the applicant will perform
relevant activities as expected by the Agency, but without the requirements on the organisation itself
that can be found in Subpart J
.
There are no privileges associated with alternative procedures, however the Agency will decide
on the extent of its involvement in the verification of compliance documents. This involvement
may vary according to the Agency knowledge of the applicant from previous and on-going
activities and the resulting assessment of competence, and must be addressed in the
certification programme.


Thanks for the answers ! I'm kind of sinking under the messy EU documentations ...

There are a lot more discussions on this topic in other threads!
[/COLOR]

Regards,
Angelika


Regards / Cedric
 
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L

Latcedric

Vielen danke Angelika ! I understand that taking a sun-bath is more interesting than dissecting the EU regulations :). Same thing in HH !

My firm is already certified in Part21.G, but the production and the design offices are somehow not really connected (through a parent firm).

The difficulty I had was that we produce very configurable products (harnesses) and therefore a "product" is vague, as very few parts are identical. I estimated quickly the implementation to take a year with 5 people (for a 300 people firm and 3 locations), the EASA costs at around 100k€.
Globally a budget of 700k€ and later the continuity cost of 5 people wages. Am I in the usual range ?

How do design offices usually get some implementation support ? From the EASA (seeing their hourly fees I doubt it ?!?) ? From the single training of their employees ? From external consultants ? From the NAAs ? Other ways ?

Herzliche Grüße :)
 
A

Angelika

Guten Morgen, Latcedric,

I guess there must be something wrong. The cost for DOAs who do not design products but only modifications (e.g. STC) to products are much lower.

If you wish you may write me a private e-mail and describe what exactly you are planning to do. We can also arrange for a telcon.

Ein wunderschönes Wochende aus dem sonnigen Süden!
Angelika
 
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