Blank Form vs. Completed Form - A document or record?

Hello,

I've been hired to move a company along towards ISO registration as my first summer job as a quality student. I have a question about a certain document that this company uses. It is a small manufacturing company (10 people here in total).

Whenever an order comes in, they use this sheet to tell the production floor what product to build, quantities, drawing of the product, what components should be used, what part number are we calling it, when is it due out, etc. etc. This sheet is also where the test data is recorded when QC testing is done during final inspection.

Also, when an order comes in for a product that we have built before, we just look for the old sheet with that part number and use it to build the new sheet and basically just copy all the contents of the old sheet to the new sheet. We keep all the copies of these sheets.

There are also occasions where we use the same sheet not to send out to the shop floor, but to record the components for products built for certain customers (like a specification sheet) and a drawing.

My question is, does the blank sheet fall under controlled document and the filled in ones are controlled records? OR Because we also use them as product specifications/drawings, all of the filled ones are controlled documents?

Also, do things like invoice forms, quotation forms, cost sheet forms, etc. fall under controlled docs?

Thanks so much!
Motto

Yes and yes!

As a blank form, a template if you will, it a form and should be controlled as it is used to record data vital to the product, right?

Once it is filled in, it becomes a record and items such as identification, storage location, protections, retrieval, retention time, and disposition of it (i.e., shredded, blue-boxed, purged) are to be indicated.

Think of it like this...not too long ago you did your taxes, right? The paperwork/e-file is the form to be filled in. Once you completed everything, verified your return (or payment to be made), and submitted it, it became a record to the tax people.

RCBeyette said:

Yes and yes!

As a blank form, a template if you will, it a form and should be controlled as it is used to record data vital to the product, right?

Once it is filled in, it becomes a record and items such as identification, storage location, protections, retrieval, retention time, and disposition of it (i.e., shredded, blue-boxed, purged) are to be indicated.

Think of it like this...not too long ago you did your taxes, right? The paperwork/e-file is the form to be filled in. Once you completed everything, verified your return (or payment to be made), and submitted it, it became a record to the tax people.

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In addition, there is no rule against using a record for reference, the primary criterion is the original record cannot be altered. However, "copies" of a record can be altered to create new documents.

Simple concept to help you keep the difference between document and record straight:
Document is the "plan of activity"
Record is the "proof of activity"

Motto:

First, welcome to the Cove!!

To try to answer your questions, the first thing I must say is that if the system is working, don't try to fix it. I suspect by the questions you are asking, you are not.

So, to me, the most important thing here is to make sure that the flow of information from the customer order to the shop floor is correct, actually happens, and is timely.

It seems like the last order for a certain part for a certain customer is what is going to control that flow. So, is there some indication on each sheet that the part has been made and sent to the customer? That way the old order will not be mistaken for a new one. Also, is there any way to indicate on the old (last) order when there was a mistake or change made to the spec? Finally, how do you make sure the last, as opposed to the next-to-last, order is used? From a systems standpoint, controlled specifications would be preferrable, but this system could work if controlled properly, IMO.

As far as controlled/noncontrolled document/form, I would control the blanks as forms, to make sure that all or the blanks for the relevant information is there, and as noted above, control the last, and previous to the last, orders.

The other documents would be either controlled as forms (raw) or records (filled out). The rational is simple: How bad would it be to have a customer refer to a quote form that has been lost? Bummer.

Anyhow, I suspect more advice will follow. Good luck, and I hope this helps.

Craig

RCBeyette said:

Yes and yes!

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Boo!!!

I suppose my confusion stems from the fact that we use the same sheets as "specification" sheets AND as sheets for production. And when I was reading other threads on the same topic, they said specifications are to be treated as a controlled doc and not as a record.

I'll treat the blank sheet as a controlled doc and the filled in sheets (whether used as a specification or for production) as a record. I hope that's okay.

Craig H. said:

Motto:

First, welcome to the Cove!!

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Great to be here!!!

Craig H. said:

To try to answer your questions, the first thing I must say is that if the system is working, don't try to fix it. I suspect by the questions you are asking, you are not.

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No, I'm really trying to work with their system. It's hard enough being just a summer, quality student. I'm sure they don't really like it when I tell them that something needs to be documented or controlled and such. But hey, that's what I was hired to do...

Craig H. said:

So, is there some indication on each sheet that the part has been made and sent to the customer? That way the old order will not be mistaken for a new one.

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No, there is no indication that the part has been made before. If the production staff has been working here for a while, they may know because the part numbers for new products are assigned sequentially. So, if we're working on Part #300 but an order came in for #89, they may know that way.

But a new sheet is made everytime for each new order, regardless of whether or not it was made before. The old sheet is basically just copied for the product spec.

Craig H. said:

Also, is there any way to indicate on the old (last) order when there was a mistake or change made to the spec?

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No, the changes are not indicated, because generally if there is a change of any kind to the product, a new part # will be issued to it and it is a new product. They always copy the latest order to ensure they're using the latest revision, so to speak.

Craig H. said:

Finally, how do you make sure the last, as opposed to the next-to-last, order is used? From a systems standpoint, controlled specifications would be preferrable, but this system could work if controlled properly, IMO.

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The only way that is done right now is by date. For each part #, they are filed by date. And they take the latest one. Would that need to be controlled?To ensure the latest revision is copied all the time?

Craig H. said:

As far as controlled/noncontrolled document/form, I would control the blanks as forms, to make sure that all or the blanks for the relevant information is there, and as noted above, control the last, and previous to the last, orders.

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If I control the last and previous to the last sheets, do I have to add a revision number to them? Or will the date do?

Thanks for all the advice!!! It's very much appreciated...

Motto:

As far as "have to do", my suggestions are not that, but suggestions for controlling the system.

It is good that you are "working with what works". Your observation about people resenting someone coming in and telling them to change is pretty universal.

As far as making sure the latest version is used, if there have been no problems so far, I would just watch out for it and leave well enough alone.

As for using dates instead of revision numbers, that is how we control ALL of our documents - a document issued/revised today would be revision number 061104. As it is now Friday after lunch, I have it on good authority (mine) that there WILL NOT be such a document issued, but I digress.

As usual, the experts here rule! If you need help, a quick search will often provide an answer. If not, fire away.

Craig

Motto said:

Boo!!!

I suppose my confusion stems from the fact that we use the same sheets as "specification" sheets AND as sheets for production. And when I was reading other threads on the same topic, they said specifications are to be treated as a controlled doc and not as a record.

I'll treat the blank sheet as a controlled doc and the filled in sheets (whether used as a specification or for production) as a record. I hope that's okay.

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Why not save a template for each when you first start a new job, and use that as a starting place for each order. It would then be a controlled coc (spec) yet you can easily take a copy of it and fill in your PO# etc, for that order. If a change comes thru just change the template.

Sounds to me like you're using what we would call a "router" or others may call a "process sheet". It lists the steps to go through to make a certain product, and also gives some in-process specifications and a place to record the data from these along the way.

One way to do it: Create a revision-controlled master router for each product. When you need to make that product, pull the master up on computer, add whatever info you want/need to like customer names, # you need to make, customer PO number, etc. and print it out. When it is completed, save it as a quality record.

Mike S. said:

Sounds to me like you're using what we would call a "router" or others may call a "process sheet". It lists the steps to go through to make a certain product, and also gives some in-process specifications and a place to record the data from these along the way.

One way to do it: Create a revision-controlled master router for each product. When you need to make that product, pull the master up on computer, add whatever info you want/need to like customer names, # you need to make, customer PO number, etc. and print it out. When it is completed, save it as a quality record.

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Good idea, Mike. Another term for the same thing is "traveller."