AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification (to both standards)

I haven't seen this kind of question addressed much despite the number of threads on dual ISO/AS certifications, so I was wondering if I could get some help with this.

My company is relatively small (30ish people), and nearly all of its work is custom non-aerospace (ie. ISO). However, for the small amount of aerospace work that we do, we are looking to get AS9100C certified to the particular scope of aerospace customers.

There are some processes between ISO9001 and AS9100C that can be separated; for example, we can place stringent demands on our suppliers if we have an aerospace customer and have laxer ones for a commercial customer. However, there are other processes that are inseparable.

The main example I can think of is for training. Because of the small size of our production staff, we cannot institute "ISO" training or "AS" training separately. Other examples include individual CARs for just commercial customers or just aerospace customers (the latter asking if there's any other NCP).

How would these be reconciled? Would the production staff have to be trained under AS standards, or would they have to be trained specifically when an aerospace job comes in? Would we use an ISO-geared CAR unless we have a nonconformance on an aerospace job?

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

warrock said:

I haven't seen this kind of question addressed much despite the number of threads on dual ISO/AS certifications, so I was wondering if I could get some help with this.

My company is relatively small (30ish people), and nearly all of its work is custom non-aerospace (ie. ISO). However, for the small amount of aerospace work that we do, we are looking to get AS9100C certified to the particular scope of aerospace customers.

There are some processes between ISO9001 and AS9100C that can be separated; for example, we can place stringent demands on our suppliers if we have an aerospace customer and have laxer ones for a commercial customer. However, there are other processes that are inseparable.

The main example I can think of is for training. Because of the small size of our production staff, we cannot institute "ISO" training or "AS" training separately. Other examples include individual CARs for just commercial customers or just aerospace customers (the latter asking if there's any other NCP).

How would these be reconciled? Would the production staff have to be trained under AS standards, or would they have to be trained specifically when an aerospace job comes in? Would we use an ISO-geared CAR unless we have a nonconformance on an aerospace job?

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Welcome: perhaps you could tell us why you think that "ISO" or "AS" training is needed, that you'd have to run 2 systems... Most folks couldn't care less about ISO etc. It's not written for them. Your focus for them is your qms

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

AndyN said:

Welcome: perhaps you could tell us why you think that "ISO" or "AS" training is needed, that you'd have to run 2 systems... Most folks couldn't care less about ISO etc. It's not written for them. Your focus for them is your qms

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I thought that AS requirements are more specific; ie. we would have to train Sales to not only assess customer requirements but also the risk associated with them.

The problem (to me at least) with just a blanket AS9100C certification is that some aerospace requirements, such as requiring suppliers to retain records for long periods of time or assessing every job for all risks, may be way too demanding for a non-aerospace customer.

It might be folly to say that something can be "too strict" in terms of quality, but these extra steps do represent lost time (physically rendering each scrap unusable, FAIR on each process on a 12-process list, identification and inspection of critical items) with no value added (I must stress, not in quality, but just in terms of fulfilling customer requirements).

This thus turns into the company charging the (non-aero) customer more for something they didn't request, which is not really something we want to do.

Ideally what I'd want to do is have the company become certified with the scope being something like this (taken from another thread):

The requirements of AS9100C apply to projects where customers require AS9100C to be applied by contract and included manufacturing of machined parts for the aircraft, space, and defense industries.

The requirements of ISO 9001:2008 apply to projects that do not require AS9100C by contract and include manufacturing of machined parts to the bicycle and automotive aftermarket industries.

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I'm just wondering how stuff that overlaps between the two certs, like training, can be reconciled.

As for customers being concerned (or not) with quality systems, a lot of our customers are looking for 3rd party certification recently, which is why we're looking to institute something beyond "ISO compliant."

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

As we are an Aerospace org, we are AS9100C cert'd. We were ISO 9001 until 9100. AS9100C contains all of the ISO 9001 quality requirements plus additional requirements (which are in bold type in the document).
I would say anything you had to do for ISO you still have to do, plus the AS9100C req's.

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

dgriffith said:

As we are an Aerospace org, we are AS9100C cert'd. We were ISO 9001 until 9100. AS9100C contains all of the ISO 9001 quality requirements plus additional requirements (which are in bold type in the document).
I would say anything you had to do for ISO you still have to do, plus the AS9100C req's.

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Right, but do we have to perform AS-required activities on non-AS jobs? For example, do we have to perform risk assessment on a commercial quote?

If we don't, do we have to have two quote forms - one for aerospace and one for commercial? Or can we have one form with everything, but for commercial jobs the risk assessment portion is crossed out?

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

warrock said:

Right, but do we have to perform AS-required activities on non-AS jobs? For example, do we have to perform risk assessment on a commercial quote?

If we don't, do we have to have two quote forms - one for aerospace and one for commercial? Or can we have one form with everything, but for commercial jobs the risk assessment portion is crossed out?

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No and no. It's not a matter of "forms" it's all about the process. You can have 1 form, as you suggest, and have a different process the form goes through. Do you have any external help to guide you with AS 9100 implementation?

Re: AS9100C/ISO9001:2008 Dual Certification

AndyN said:

No and no. It's not a matter of "forms" it's all about the process. You can have 1 form, as you suggest, and have a different process the form goes through. Do you have any external help to guide you with AS 9100 implementation?

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Could you define how a single form can undergo two different processes?

I do have the 9100C and 9101E documents, but I've largely been using Elsmar resources (threads and downloads) to build my comprehension of AS9100 implementation.

This thread covered similar ground and you may find it helpful:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=64255

We have a similar situation to yours and have been registered to both for a few years. Since the scope of work is different for both registrations, we have the appropriate scopes listed for the activities for which we are involved.

What we have is one quality manual where we differentiate the aerospace sector documented processes in a different font.

Obviously there is a lot of overlap of processes/activities where a level II or III document will sufficed. Where required, we have specific level II and III documents where the scope is limited to our aerospace internal and external customers.

The biggest problem that we have had is getting the registrar to issue us a certificate with the correct scope and quality system.


Good Luck - it is not as daunting as it may seem at the onset of your endeavor.