Job hunting for new graduates and others with no job experience

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Last week, I received this pm. I promised the writer I would take up the topic, but keep his/her identity confidential.

Frankly, the topic has taken me a lot longer to formulate my thoughts than almost any other I have ever written about here in the Cove.

First, I feel a lot of empathy for anyone who is unemployed or underemployed, but I think the most bone-crushing insult for young, inexperienced folks to be slapped with is, "Come back when you have some experience!" The Catch 22, of course, being there is no place to get experience if all the employers repeat the same mantra, "Come back when you have experience!"

So, how does a person with pertinent education crack the code to get that first, most important hire to get some pertinent experience? In the first part of this thread, we will talk about those folks who have credible education credits (decent school, decent reputation for the courses, decent grades.)

Later in the thread, I'll take up the special cases where the education may not be pertinent or credible.

Here's the message which triggered the thread:
Good afternoon,

First I wanted to thank you for all the hard work you put into all the threads under the Occupation Discussions threads. I have read though much of the information and continue to as well.

I am a recent graduate with a degree in Mechanical Engineering Technology at [deleted for confidentiality] and am currently seeking to find a position that would let me apply what I have learned and more importantly, learn so much more about being an engineer. I am currently working as a quality intern at a local power steering and fuel line production for the automotive industry. I came about this site for to research and learn as much as I could about the quality standards for the automotive industry as I had no experience with quality in my studies.

In your posts, much of the advice was geared toward people who had more relevant work experience towards the company's job description to show how they would stand out. As a recent graduate, I only have what I have learned in college as well at my current job as well as past jobs though they don't have any starting my career. My questions are how would you best advise a graduate in a job hunt? How can I stand out from people who have years of experience? Many positions have years of experience required and never sure if I should try applying even if I know I would be able to do the job well.

Sorry for the somewhat long message and would appreciate any advice.

Thank you for your time,
I have a hunch most of our Cove readers have found themselves in a similar predicament at some point in their lives and they certainly know friends, relatives, and children of friends and relatives who are facing the same brick wall today.

First, let's recap what every employer really has in the back [or front] of his mind each time he reviews the credentials of a candidate (even before the interview stage):
"What's in it for me [and my company?]"

Rarely, and especially in a dire economic climate, does a person in charge of hiring employees have a mandate to think first about the benefit to the employee. Every focus is on value to the company, with a side focus on the allied benefits to the individual who manages to bring someone of value to the company.

Therefore, the candidate's job is first, foremost, and always, to focus on what value he CAN bring to the company, not on what he can't bring.

Note carefully I do not write about "experience as a Quality Manager" or "experience as a Quality Engineer," but on the VALUE of the candidate to the company.

My own continuing mantra about job hunting is
"Research the prospective employer to see what VALUE is needed."

For those of us with tons of experience, much of the value we offer is being able to hit the ground running, bringing a combination of skill, experience, and intelligence to bear on providing solutions to an employer. However, in many situations, I and many of my colleagues are definite "overkill" for the value an organization requires in the short term and most organizations are not willing or able to pay the prevailing full-time wage for folks with my experience and skills. They do, however, hire us on a short-term basis as consultants or contractors to fill a gap or get an organization kick-started, knowing that we and our high fees will soon be replaced with lower wage workers who can slip into maintaining an infrastructure we may have created. Organizations often hire super-experienced Certified [chartered] public accountants to set up accounting systems, but then, much lower wage workers are hired to "follow the recipe."

Similarly, mid-level chain restaurants like Olive Garden and Red Lobster hire top level, top paid chefs to create menus and recipes, but then lower-waged cooks are employed to execute the recipes on a day-to-day basis.

The problem remains, however, that many folks put in charge of hiring are not sophisticated or experienced enough to know what they really need and so they place unrealistic demands for knowledge and experience when viewing candidates. This puts the burden back on the candidate to really research a prospective employer and make a strong case for being the solution to what the employer really needs instead of what he [the employer] "thinks" he needs. It is not easy, but it can be done.

Ability, Motivation, Attitude
Inexperienced candidates have to sell a prospective employer on these three attributes (attributes, not characteristics, because they are subjective, not objective.) In selling each attribute, the candidate must find a way to connect the dots and tie each attribute of the candidate to how it will benefit the organization.

Just a brief glossary of what I mean by these three attributes:
Ability
This is what the candidate is capable of doing (math, proofreading, interpreting drawings, designing or running computer programs, etc. etc. ???)
Motivation
This is what the candidate intends to do [for example, I [Wes] can do math and computer programming, but I have no intention of ever doing it for a living] and why he wants to.
Attitude
Oddly, this is often most important to an organization, but because it is an attribute, not a characteristic, employers have not developed a yardstick to measure good attitude (the desire to perform at or above expectation EVERY time) versus bad attitude (the desire to just get by.) The candidate who can sell this attribute as a strong point is well on his way to getting hired.

In our other job threads, I wrote briefly about creating a grid of a candidate's skills and matching them to a grid of potential employers and their needs. This grid requires very careful research by inexperienced candidates because trying to sell an organization on one's skill as a software programmer is futile when what the organization really needs is someone who can interpret engineering drawings.

Above all,
don't whine and beg for a job. The kind of employer who wants a needy, whiny yes man and whipping boy is most likely NOT the kind of employer anyone wants to work for over any period of time.

State your case clearly and confidently. Follow the tips we've provided in other threads about resumes, references, and getting past gatekeepers. Job hunting is a skill. It can be learned. Failing to learn how to be effective and efficient at job hunting is dooming yourself to drifting along solely on the charity and good will of others. Even then, many unemployed folks who have been terminated from their jobs in favor of others who didn't seem as qualified fail to see the difference is primarily in how the candidate presents his case to a prospective employer.

Read through ALL the FAQ threads in this forum.
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
We're going into a long holiday weekend in the USA and many organizations have granted employees a four-day weekend. I'll work on some ideas for those folks who may have "some" experience in a work situation, but in a different industry - there are ways to make such experience relevant to a prospective employer in the new, chosen field.

Some folks out there have just been dealt a raw deal -

  • little or no opportunity to get credible education
  • experience all in a dead-end industry or field
  • age held against them (too young or too old)
  • facing gender or race prejudice
  • etc. etc.
My response for those folks is,
"Yep! You have a tougher struggle than someone who starts with all the advantages, but that only means the job hunting will take more effort and time, NOT that it is hopeless to even try."

I don't want to give the impression I am the sole authority on getting a job - heaven knows I haven't had to look for a job myself for many years, but I do keep my ear to the ground and counsel dozens of folks each year who have thought they ran out of options. I'll be very pleased if some of you readers will chime in with ideas or experiences - Knowledge is power!

FWIW:
Almost all the folks I've met who thought they ran out of options ultimately realized they had limited themselves by imposing geographic and company name restrictions on their searches. Be realistic - let your research tell you what real opportunities exist and remain open to widening your search in either or both geography and industry/company name.

A sad truth is the majority of folks seeking jobs this year and next will be disappointed in the pay rate when they do land a job. It may seem unfair, but the reality is the previous "irrational exuberance" of big corporate salaries is probably settling in at the proper scale (pretty much like real estate values once the bubble bursts.)
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Now that folks are back to work, I had an opportunity to converse with some colleagues about the job hunting challenges facing young folks with no experience in an industry.

Almost universally, these folks who are educators and executives replied with some variation of "you have to walk before you can run."

In practical terms, it means the candidate must create a mindset in himself where each job he takes must offer a clear path of progression to learn more about an industry and more about business in general. I remarked it seemed like Deming's "System of Profound Knowledge" (SoPK) was alive and well in the 21st century. The point being that an individual makes himself more valuable to an organization as well as to himself by continually amassing and internally processing information about the "big picture" of an organization, an industry, or business in general (profit or nonprofit.) The key is the internal processing of that information so the candidate can make a cogent presentation to a prospective employer when seeking new, higher levels of employment that he [the candidate] does have something of value to contribute to the organization once in that higher level.

It also means, therefore, the candidate must be in a continual search for new employment opportunities and pragmatic in being willing to move from one job to another, from one industry to another, even from one geographic location to another. Compromising on any aspect of the willingness to move to a different job within an organization or to another organization or industry has a tendency to to put a big delay in promotions and to defer the expanded responsibilities which come with the expanded pay check.

Bottom line:
The young and inexperienced probably do have to start at the bottom, regardless of the education level, but the rapidity of the rise in responsibility and pay is dependent on how aggressively the candidate deploys and assimilates Deming's System of Profound Knowledge. In line with that, the candidate must be able to recognize dead end situations and actively seek to change that status by reviving it or moving to another situation where the opportunities are greater.
 
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J

javedktw

Thank you very much for this post, it is very helpful, guiding and motivating.
I am also a new graduate in Mechanical Engineering and trying to enter in the quality engineering. It's almost more than 6 months I am trying to break the loop of "experience for the first job and a job for the first experience." I may use a well stated tip of performing a voluntary job to get some experience, but I am almost graduating and may not spend a year without getting paid.

My question is: Can getting certified like ASQ SSGB/CQPA/CQA etc. can help or show an employer that I hold the knowledge in these fields and willing to work in these areas OR it could act as an additional hurdle and temper my chances further by making an employer feel "WHY HE GOT CERTIFIED WITHOUT GETTING EXPERIENCE"?

I worked for two years in the field of inspection as a part time, but the job was in textile industry and also it required almost no special skills, just simple visual inspection. This I usually do not put in my CV as it was years ago and I am trying a luck in manufacturing sectors those uses the skills listed in ASQ BOK's.

Your valuable advice are highly appreciated
 

harry

Trusted Information Resource
My advice would be - grab any job related to your field of studies that comes along. You can't be good in the quality engineering field without any practical knowledge or exposure in the engineering field.

With regards to your experience in the textile industry, you should highlight them because the inspection methods could be different but the ideas, purpose and principles are often the same.
 
J

javedktw

thanks Harry:
but my question was regarding the very first job only, that I am ready to grab in the field of continual improvement. Could certifications without experience have a positive or negative effect on my job search? Or it may make no change.
thank you
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Thank you very much for this post, it is very helpful, guiding and motivating.
I am also a new graduate in Mechanical Engineering and trying to enter in the quality engineering. It's almost more than 6 months I am trying to break the loop of "experience for the first job and a job for the first experience." I may use a well stated tip of performing a voluntary job to get some experience, but I am almost graduating and may not spend a year without getting paid.

My question is: Can getting certified like ASQ SSGB/CQPA/CQA etc. can help or show an employer that I hold the knowledge in these fields and willing to work in these areas OR it could act as an additional hurdle and temper my chances further by making an employer feel "WHY HE GOT CERTIFIED WITHOUT GETTING EXPERIENCE"?

I worked for two years in the field of inspection as a part time, but the job was in textile industry and also it required almost no special skills, just simple visual inspection. This I usually do not put in my CV as it was years ago and I am trying a luck in manufacturing sectors those uses the skills listed in ASQ BOK's.

Your valuable advice are highly appreciated

thanks Harry:
but my question was regarding the very first job only, that I am ready to grab in the field of continual improvement. Could certifications without experience have a positive or negative effect on my job search? Or it may make no change.
thank you
The simple answer about certifications is they probably have absolutely zero effect either way on an entry level job in anything to do with mechanical engineering.

As you may have guessed by now, mechanical engineering and quality engineering are two completely different fields. QEs do not need a mechanical engineering degree in 90% of industries served by QEs (pharma, textiles, food, etc.) Even in the industries where an ME might be helpful (auto, aerospace, medical devices, etc.), many organizations with QEs do not require an specific degree, regardless of the industry.

I wrote
Ability, Motivation, Attitude
Inexperienced candidates have to sell a prospective employer on these three attributes (attributes, not characteristics, because they are subjective, not objective.) In selling each attribute, the candidate must find a way to connect the dots and tie each attribute of the candidate to how it will benefit the organization.

Just a brief glossary of what I mean by these three attributes:
Ability
This is what the candidate is capable of doing (math, proofreading, interpreting drawings, designing or running computer programs, etc. etc. ???)
Motivation
This is what the candidate intends to do [for example, I [Wes] can do math and computer programming, but I have no intention of ever doing it for a living] and why he wants to.
Attitude
Oddly, this is often most important to an organization, but because it is an attribute, not a characteristic, employers have not developed a yardstick to measure good attitude (the desire to perform at or above expectation EVERY time) versus bad attitude (the desire to just get by.) The candidate who can sell this attribute as a strong point is well on his way to getting hired.

In our other job threads, I wrote briefly about creating a grid of a candidate's skills and matching them to a grid of potential employers and their needs. This grid requires very careful research by inexperienced candidates because trying to sell an organization on one's skill as a software programmer is futile when what the organization really needs is someone who can interpret engineering drawings.

Part of YOUR grid should be a solid understanding of what an industry and what specific organizations in each industry EXPECT from both a beginner QE and an experienced QE. There is a wide variance. Start with the Body of Knowledge for ASQ SSGB/CQPA/CQA/QE and compare those against the needs and requirements of organizations you are researching. Is there a match or not? If you are unsure, invest in a phone call to the current Quality Manager of a company and ask.

Bottom line:
Since two companies are rarely identical in what they need and/or want at the moment YOU are looking for a job, a generic answer could send you down a blind alley and you may have wasted time and energy pursuing a designation which could have been better spent researching specific potential employers.
 
J

javedktw

I agree both fields are different.

But while searching for job opportunities I found many mechanical engineering positions requirements stating "at least a Six Sigma Green Belt certified" and in many manufacturing engineering jobs stating "4 year degree may be in Manufacturing/Mechanical/Industrial or related fields" and giving emphasis on ASQ certs. if the job is in their quality department.

I spent two years in my Master's degree on a research area where I couldn't find many job opportunities, and if they do, then it's in R&D only till date. So I need to diversify my skills to get into an industry as no employer will be interested in my research if it is not useful to his organization (as in my case). So I hope to open some doors for me by diversifying my skills in the direction of my interest.

Thanks for your reply
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
I agree both fields are different.

But while searching for job opportunities I found many mechanical engineering positions requirements stating "at least a Six Sigma Green Belt certified" and in many manufacturing engineering jobs stating "4 year degree may be in Manufacturing/Mechanical/Industrial or related fields" and giving emphasis on ASQ certs. if the job is in their quality department.

I spent two years in my Master's degree on a research area where I couldn't find many job opportunities, and if they do, then it's in R&D only till date. So I need to diversify my skills to get into an industry as no employer will be interested in my research if it is not useful to his organization (as in my case). So I hope to open some doors for me by diversifying my skills in the direction of my interest.

Thanks for your reply

You won't be able to earn meaningful certification without meaningful experience. The ASQ certifications all have experience prerequisites, some of which is offset by education. You're going to have to start in an entry level position of some sort, and many if not most quality engineers and managers came to quality via some other discipline. IMO, you should concentrate at the outset on getting an engineering job in an industry that interests you, get some experience, and then look around for possible certifications and job opportunities in quality.

If you see something that interests you, don't let the experience requirements stop you from inquiring or submitting a résumé/CV and letter of interest. Some job openings aren't advertised, and sometimes managers are open to exceptions from the stated requirements.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Jim makes a good point in his post -
If you see something that interests you, don't let the experience requirements stop you from inquiring or submitting a résumé/CV and letter of interest. Some job openings aren't advertised, and sometimes managers are open to exceptions from the stated requirements.
The point is to be subtle and help your application of cover letter and resume avoid the dreaded "gatekeeper" when you don't have EXACTLY the credentials listed in a job listing.

Remember, the gatekeeper's primary function is to weed out applications that don't meet the listed criteria for a job listing. Rarely does a gatekeeper have the power to read between the lines and forward a resume which lists the specific job position when it [the resume] doesn't contain ALL the buzzwords listed on the gatekeeper's check list.

A simple way to sidestep that first "knockout" (when you don't have all the credentials listed in a job ad) is to research and send a general application directly to a department head where your research shows you will "fit" and do not list a specific position, especially NOT the one listed in their ad, but, instead, write about the functions and the values you can provide (from that matrix grid of skills and abilities you've prepared as part of your research.)

If there is no job TITLE for a gatekeeper to apply a checklist, there is less chance of having the resume discarded before it reaches a real decision maker.

QUERY:
I'd be interested in learning if any of our readers have successfully employed such a technique recently. If not, what happened?

If you are a boss, have you accepted an "over the transom" application similar to what I have described above when you were actually advertising a specific job title? What happened?

Does your company use "gatekeepers?" How do you feel about that?
 
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