How do you Define Competence - ISO IEC 17021

Here at my CB (as part of the transition to ISO IEC 17021) we are being asked to justify our assessment of competence for experienced auditors in every type of industry they work in.

The assessment of competence is a broad topic. This change of approach could have implications for certified / registered companies and also how ISO 9001 auditors challenge the competence element in ISO 9001 clause 6.2.

What do you think makes an auditor competent to audit your company?

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Paul Simpson said:

Here at my CB (as part of the transition to ISO IEC 17021) we are being asked to justify our assessment of competence for experienced auditors in every type of industry they work in.

The assessment of competence is a broad topic. This change of approach could have implications for certified / registered companies and also how ISO 9001 auditors challenge the competence element in ISO 9001 clause 6.2.

What do you think makes an auditor competent to audit your company?

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Hello Paul,

Are you looking for CB Auditor competencies and attributes above and beyond to what is listed in ISO 19011?

Stijloor.

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Stijloor said:

Are you looking for CB Auditor competencies and attributes above and beyond to what is listed in ISO 19011?

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Hi, Stijloor - looks like I jumped into the thread too quickly. I have looked at 19011 (although must confess I'm not that familiar with it). I know if my system says "we use 19011" it will be thrown out by the AB!

What I am trying to get to (by picking the brains of the good Cove dwellers out there) is how you demonstrate competence.

Here's a couple of (contentious) points / questions to illustrate:

• Attendance on a course is not proof of competence
• Educational qualifications are not necessarily proof of competence
• If I am competent to audit a fabrication company I may not necessarily be competent to assess a pressure vessel manufacturer
• Do you have to be a qualified doctor / MD to audit health service provision?

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Paul Simpson said:

Hi, Stijloor - looks like I jumped into the thread too quickly. I have looked at 19011 (although must confess I'm not that familiar with it). I know if my system says "we use 19011" it will be thrown out by the AB!

What I am trying to get to (by picking the brains of the good Cove dwellers out there) is how you demonstrate competence.

Here's a couple of (contentious) points / questions to illustrate:

• Attendance on a course is not proof of competence
• Educational qualifications are not necessarily proof of competence
• If I am competent to audit a fabrication company I may not necessarily be competent to assess a pressure vessel manufacturer
• Do you have to be a qualified doctor / MD to audit health service provision?

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Hi Paul,

Thank you for your clarification. That makes sense. Examples of evidence of auditor competency is what you're looking for.

I'll go to work...

Stijloor.

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Paul:
Having worked for a CB in the UK ( a few moons ago) the 'all of the above' selection worked for us. We placed a lot of emphasis on the certification process (internal procedures), a fair amount on the interpretation of the standards and a whole heck of a lot on the specific industry. Operations management were very careful to select people who could demonstrate )over time) to their field supervisor (I was one) their collective wisdom - as well as the other facets covered in ISO 19011 (now).

Strangely, it was the only organization I worked for who actually verified my training, marital status etc.:mg:

Of course, in the UK such close observation of an assessor by the CB isn't a logistical nightmare. In the USA and other large geographical areas, it will be a (costly) challenge to do effectvely.......

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Competence....demonstrated personal attributes and demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skill.

Look to Section 7 of ISO 19011:2002, it provides all the guidance you need (especially Table 3)

As for the question....I'm a firm believer that an auditor should have some hands on experience with the subject matter of the audit (other than a 40 hour course) to begin with and then the industry itself. Automotive, medical, food and aerospace already mandate industry experience (though I don't agree with some of the timelines)

It would be hard to look a client in the face and say "I'm going to audit you and I don't know what I'm looking at because I've never seen it before"

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

What I look for in auditor competence is a blending of understanding the requirements and processes. Knowledge of the standard is important, as is understanding of the organizational processes. But more important is understanding how the two interact and interrelate.

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Scary, I was looking to quote your post (c 2 lines) and it came out as a few more - what is going on here?

Randy said:

Competence....demonstrated personal attributes and demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skill.

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Agreed - the question is how you demonstrate that ability for every technology you deal with and every company size / type.

Randy said:

Look to Section 7 of ISO 19011:2002, it provides all the guidance you need (especially Table 3)

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As wee Willie Shakespeare once said : "There's the rub!" If your AB says that 19011 is not sufficient - and particularly the bit about course + work experience + audit training & experience does not equal competence - then what do you do?

Randy said:

As for the question....I'm a firm believer that an auditor should have some hands on experience with the subject matter of the audit (other than a 40 hour course) to begin with and then the industry itself. Automotive, medical, food and aerospace already mandate industry experience (though I don't agree with some of the timelines).

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OK. That is another problem .... there are some auditors who are able to apply their trade in a range of industry sectors and there are others who, if you take them an inch out of their comfort zone, fall to pieces.

Randy said:

It would be hard to look a client in the face and say "I'm going to audit you and I don't know what I'm looking at because I've never seen it before"

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Now the art is in saying ... please explain to me the process you went through to get to this point ... and then work out what's important.


$64,000 question - HOW does a CB demonstrate they have assessed their auditors as competent to work in all the industry sectors they do?

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Let me think on this one and try to come up with some way to not violate confidentiality.

It's like welding...I can't do it, but I know what a good weld looks like....

I'll be getting back

Re: ISO IEC 17021 - How do you define competence

Paul Simpson said:

Originally Posted by Randy

As for the question....I'm a firm believer that an auditor should have some hands on experience with the subject matter of the audit (other than a 40 hour course) to begin with and then the industry itself. Automotive, medical, food and aerospace already mandate industry experience (though I don't agree with some of the timelines).

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I'll weigh in on this too. I fear this will get messy for 3rd party auditors for a couple years, until the dust settles again.

There are some industries where I have a lot of experience, and some where I have a little (enough to meet the requirement). I can truthfully say I audit each more than adequately. Those where I have the most experience,I can ask more deep, technical questions. BUT, I am not there to challenge whether the operator was as good at it as I was. I am there to assess whether he is doing an effective job, and the system is effective. Maybe, to add a few OFI's. I can do that equally well with my best industry codes and my lesser ones. The extra depth of knowledge can actually get in the way in some cases.

Now, if it is an industry where I have no experience, it would take a few audits to get good familiarity, in order to audit well. But, alas, the AB's don't see it this way and the fur will fly for a while.

OK. That is another problem .... there are some auditors who are able to apply their trade in a range of industry sectors and there are others who, if you take them an inch out of their comfort zone, fall to pieces.

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Those auditors should NOT be 3rd party auditors in the first place. here are some general requirements about having appropriate manager level and business experience. Those types should fail that first threshold.