Quoted Tolerances Trumping Drawing Tolerances?

QMMike

Involved In Discussions
OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?
 
B

Bogie

OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?

Sales people will always be of the opinion that a quote will trump. However, many customers' PO requirements (usually spelled out in a seperate document) will spell out that they do not recognize exceptions unless specifically accepted by a customer representative.

We finally took the guesswork out of who would win the p***ing contest (which large customers would always win anyway) and require that we get written acceptance of any exceptions before we accept the PO.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?

It's not the quote or the drawing, necessarily but the contract (the purchase order) that will ultimately rule in a dispute. Unless special terms in the quotation are acknowledged and included in the purchase order (or a PO amendment), the purchase order shouldn't be accepted.
 

QMMike

Involved In Discussions
Would written acceptance be the approval of the PSW when in the comment section of the PSW it is stated what tolerances were used and in the layout report the quoted tolerances were used?
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Would written acceptance be the approval of the PSW when in the comment section of the PSW it is stated what tolerances were used and in the layout report the quoted tolerances were used?

This sort of tacit PPAP approval is often problematic, and even if it were to be upheld it would probably apply only to the PPAP production parts. In the end, if you want to use tolerances (or anything else) other than what the contract specifies, you're going to need to change the contract. If you don't have these things explicitly ironed out before the work begins, you risk losing money and having a disgruntled customer, whether the customer is right or wrong.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Excuse my ignorance, what is a PSW?
It stands for Part Submission Warrant, and it's an AIAG PPAP document that serves as a sort of certificate of conformance--a signed statement that indicates that all customer requirements have been met.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
It stands for Part Submission Warrant, and it's an AIAG PPAP document that serves as a sort of certificate of conformance--a signed statement that indicates that all customer requirements have been met.

Unfortunately, even if a customer signs it, many third party auditors do not equate that to the customer agree to the contents. It is a sad interpretation of the warrant, in that it dilutes the value of the whole exercise as one where the customer and the supplier agree to a baseline for the product and its process.
 
T

tomvehoski

I ran into this one recently. Supplier quoted industry tolerances which were not as tight as our print. They submitted PPAP saying they could not meet our print but could meet the industry tolerance they quoted. Quality (my) department rejected the PPAP for not matching print. Pi#@ing match ensued about forcing the supplier to comply :confused: or changing our print. Ended up changin our print.

It is poor design & development processes that let this stuff happen. If it was done right up front the prints would be set to match what is needed, feasible and cost effective. It should be taken care of long before PPAP.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Unfortunately, even if a customer signs it, many third party auditors do not equate that to the customer agree to the contents. It is a sad interpretation of the warrant, in that it dilutes the value of the whole exercise as one where the customer and the supplier agree to a baseline for the product and its process.
Although I don't remember the particulars, I had a situation with an auditor during a QS9000 surveillance audit where some particular of the PPAP requirements hadn't been met (as opposed to part requirements), but there were several approved PPAPs on file from the same customer with the same omission. I think it had something to do with material test reports, which almost never meet all of the PPAP requirements. The argument was that because it was evidentially OK with the customer, the PPAP requirement was superseded. The auditor replied that exceptions should be explicitly documented, but in the end let it go without further ado.
 
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