The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Common Quality Assurance Processes and Tools > SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)


Elsmar Cove Forum Sidebar
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Sponsor Links







Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access
Sponsored Links
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's
International Quality Services

Atul's
Symphony Technologies

Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting

Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality


Related Topic Tags
spc (statistical process control)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #33  
Old 17th December 2007, 11:06 AM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne Jim Wynne is online now
Cross Forum Moderator

 
Registration Date: Jan 2005
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
 
Posts: 13,335
Thanks Given to Others: 1,780
Thanked 5,360 Times in 3,434 Posts
Blog Entries: 2
Karma Power: 1445
Karma: 39244
Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Steve Prevette View Post

As a practical example, let us say that I am working on a construction project that is killing one worker per month on the average, and that is stable on a control chart.

The rate of deaths of workers is STABLE and PREDICTABLE. I can project forward and say how many deaths will occurr. This may sound morbid, but in the early 20th century there were rules of thumb of how many deaths to expect per million dollars of project cost.

I hope everyone will agree here that a stable non-zero rate of killing workers in not ACCEPTABLE. The stable rate is thus NOT CAPABLE.
Stability and capability are concepts that apply to processes, not to the means of counting them. It makes no sense to say that a count of accidental deaths isn't capable--it's the process that causes the deaths that's not capable, assuming zero deaths is the criterion. Whether or not deaths (or any other undesirable outcomes) is "acceptable" is a red herring. The is math concerned only with what is, and not what should be. We can predict that there will be x airline crash fatalities per y miles traveled, but the prediction (and its statistical foundation) have nothing to do with whether or not any number of deaths is considered acceptable.
__________________
We aim to please. You aim too, please.

Sponsored Links
  #34  
Old 30th January 2008, 07:51 AM
sekaran sekaran is offline
Inactive Registered Visitor

 
Registration Date: Jan 2008
Location: india
 
Posts: 2
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 22
Karma: 10
sekaran has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Please Help! Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

how do create spc Specification Limits?
Sponsored Links

  #35  
Old 30th January 2008, 09:59 AM
Steve Prevette's Avatar
Steve Prevette Steve Prevette is offline
Deming Disciple

 
Registration Date: Feb 2004
Location: Aiken, SC
 
Posts: 1,999
Thanks Given to Others: 145
Thanked 1,057 Times in 559 Posts
Karma Power: 259
Karma: 11204
Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Steve Prevette is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

I assume you are asking how to create SPC Control Limits (not specification limits). The specification limits, if any, come from the customer requirement (cut a board to a 2 foot plus or minus 1/8 inch length).

I have a writeup on the internet on how to conduct SPC, including generation of the control limits from the data at http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=1148&parent=1144. There are also plenty of other writeups in stats textbooks, and other postings here on the Cove.
__________________
Steve Prevette
"A Passionate Statistician", ASQ CQE, ASQ Fellow
  #36  
Old 30th January 2008, 05:48 PM
artichoke artichoke is offline
On Holiday

 
Registration Date: Nov 2006
Location: australia
 
Posts: 175
Thanks Given to Others: 2
Thanked 22 Times in 18 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 295
artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by sekaran View Post

how do create spc Specification Limits?
Your question is a little unclear but this may help: "How to Establish
Manufacturing Specifications"

http://www.spcpress.com/pdf/Manufact...cification.pdf
Thanks to artichoke for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #37  
Old 7th April 2009, 09:26 AM
bobdoering's Avatar
bobdoering bobdoering is offline
Stop X-bar/R Madness

 
Registration Date: May 2002
Location: LaGrange, OH
 
Posts: 3,832
Thanks Given to Others: 1,234
Thanked 1,366 Times in 1,048 Posts
Blog Entries: 20
Karma Power: 445
Karma: 8803
bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via Yahoo to bobdoering
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Steve Prevette View Post

I assume you are asking how to create SPC Control Limits (not specification limits). The specification limits, if any, come from the customer requirement (cut a board to a 2 foot plus or minus 1/8 inch length).

I have a writeup on the internet on how to conduct SPC, including generation of the control limits from the data at http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=1148&parent=1144. There are also plenty of other writeups in stats textbooks, and other postings here on the Cove.
If you are doing precision machining - and you are using correct process control, the calculations for control limits are straight forward: 75% of the specification. To see why, and for more information you can read: Statistical Process Control for Precision Machining
Thanks to bobdoering for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #38  
Old 7th April 2009, 05:11 PM
artichoke artichoke is offline
On Holiday

 
Registration Date: Nov 2006
Location: australia
 
Posts: 175
Thanks Given to Others: 2
Thanked 22 Times in 18 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 295
artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

bobdoering,

I'm curious as to why you have a logo "Stop X-bar/R Madness" ?

Machining, where constant tool wear effects results (Machine shops, SIC 3599, one of over 400 industry codes) is obviously a special case outside the general discussion. Amongst the hundreds of industries there may also be other special cases, such as those involving PID control, which fall outside the general discussion of control charts.
Thank You to artichoke for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #39  
Old 7th April 2009, 06:39 PM
bobdoering's Avatar
bobdoering bobdoering is offline
Stop X-bar/R Madness

 
Registration Date: May 2002
Location: LaGrange, OH
 
Posts: 3,832
Thanks Given to Others: 1,234
Thanked 1,366 Times in 1,048 Posts
Blog Entries: 20
Karma Power: 445
Karma: 8803
bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.bobdoering is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via Yahoo to bobdoering
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by artichoke View Post

bobdoering,

I'm curious as to why you have a logo "Stop X-bar/R Madness" ?

Machining, where constant tool wear effects results (Machine shops, SIC 3599, one of over 400 industry codes) is obviously a special case outside the general discussion.
I always find it amusing that precision machining is considered such an insignificant "special case".

Even if so, so what?

It exists, and its practitioners need to understand that they have been sold a bill of goods with traditional charting systems. The madness is specifically for those that have been driven to use that chart when it does not apply - specifically precision machining. It has driven people in precision machining mad - with ridiculously compressed control limits and over and under reported capabilities. Most have no idea what to do or where to go, and it has been my goal to correct that problem.

I do not doubt that there are truly naturally occurring normal processes, that meet the requirement of being set to a nominal value (mean), and stay at that value (some values a little lower, some values a little higher) without any interaction by an operator. There may be a bunch of them in the other SIC codes - good for them. They can use the myriad of textbooks to get the information they need. They were written just for them. I have even stronger belief that there are other exceptions - but that others affected by them have, too, been drilled into the normal fallacy, and the associated charting methods.

My point (and the point of my avatar) is to rid the madness in precision machining. I find it a very important cause, no matter how minute as a ratio of industry codes (as if they are equally distributed, and as if 200 or 300 more SIC codes might not have captured machining in their industry) or by any other "measure". This excuse of "being an exception" has been used by the SPC software suppliers, which do not provide the correct tool for precision machining to use - leaving them to fend for themselves with paper charts or Excel spreadsheets - or worst, the wrong control because they paid for garbage software sold by people who have no idea about how to control machining.

Others may have the opportunity to correct the rest of the world's statistical problems - at least for now.

Often when marketing a solution to a problem, you have to catch someone's attention to the fact that they have a problem. Apparently, your attention was caught - so there is clearly a level of success.

Besides, I was told I couldn't use my old avatar any longer.
Thanks to bobdoering for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #40  
Old 7th April 2009, 07:11 PM
artichoke artichoke is offline
On Holiday

 
Registration Date: Nov 2006
Location: australia
 
Posts: 175
Thanks Given to Others: 2
Thanked 22 Times in 18 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 295
artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.artichoke is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.
Re: SPC (Statistical Process Control) Overview

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by bobdoering View Post

I always find it amusing that precision machining is considered such an insignificant "special case".
Please read my post. I did not say that machining is "insignificant". I stated that machining is one of more than 400 industry codes.

Mis-using any chart may "drive people mad" as you suggest.

Quote:
... but that others affected by them have, too, been drilled into the normal fallacy, and the associated charting methods.
The belief in the normality fallacy widespead. Processes do not need to be normal for the use of Shewhart control charts. I strongly recommend Don Wheeler's excellent book on the topic: "Normality and the Process Behaviour Chart".
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Common Quality Assurance Processes and Tools > SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Is SPC (Statistical Process Control) useful? minudil2000 SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques 69 22nd October 2012 01:27 PM
SPC (Statistical Process Control) on Go/No-Go Checks Batguy SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques 3 16th September 2012 03:17 AM
Getting A Supplier to use SPC (Statistical Process Control) Hillsrem Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 5 10th July 2009 02:23 PM
SPC (Statistical Process Control) and SQC (Statistical Quality Control) - Difference? ignatiuswong SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques 1 10th March 2008 04:12 AM
Defining Pre-Control Zones - Statistical Process Control (SPC) llemouse SPC Monitoring and Statistical Analysis Techniques 1 15th March 2004 02:08 AM



The time now is 12:51 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272