The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Manufacturing, Service, and Business Systems Processes > Manufacturing and Related Processes
Forum Username


Search the Elsmar Cove
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page  Elsmar Cove Twitter Feed
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Sponsor Links





Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:

Howard's
International Quality Services
Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting
Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook
IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Quality Digest Portal
IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology
ASQ - American Society for Quality

Related Topic Tags
gloss, color (general)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20th June 2005, 11:46 AM
gpainter gpainter is offline
Appreciated Information Resource

 
Registration Date: Sep 2001
Location: Southern Indiana
Age: 51
 
Posts: 1,104
Thanks Given to Others: 10
Thanked 90 Times in 73 Posts
Karma Power: 164
Karma: 1088
gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.gpainter is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.
Question Gloss/color - How much does gloss affect the appearance of color?

How much does gloss affect the appearance of color? I was told that a 10 gloss unit difference may make the color match appear different(lighter/darker, even if the color matches) to the Customer's eye. Any color/gloss experts?

Last edited by gpainter; 20th June 2005 at 11:50 AM.

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 20th June 2005, 11:55 AM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne Jim Wynne is online now
Cross Forum Moderator

 
Registration Date: Jan 2005
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
 
Posts: 13,891
Thanks Given to Others: 1,987
Thanked 5,847 Times in 3,734 Posts
Blog Entries: 2
Karma Power: 1510
Karma: 41697
Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jim Wynne is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by gpainter

How much does gloss affect the appearance of color? I was told that a 10 gloss unit difference may make the color match appear different(lighter/darker, even if the color matches) to the Customer's eye. Any color/gloss experts?
The angle of reflectance is a critical component in gloss and color evaluation. In all cases where color matching is important, it's critical to specify the rules for evaluation, including angle of viewing and the light source to be used. You can find some good information on this subject by Googling for "gloss vs. color" (without the quotes).

__________________

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. --Upton Sinclair
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 20th June 2005, 12:00 PM
tomvehoski tomvehoski is offline
Courtesy Access

 
Registration Date: May 2001
Location: Warren, MI
 
Posts: 944
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 277 Times in 169 Posts
Karma Power: 154
Karma: 3995
tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.tomvehoski is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Not an expert, but many factors, including gloss, will affect perception of color. Back when I worked with paint we had constant accept/reject/accept again/reject again.... fights because we did not have clear evaluation techniques. Designers would pick a color based on a pantone chip, then be upset when it did not look the same painted on plastic, steel, in powdercoat, etc. Quality would approve components later to have the shop floor question because they did not look the same as other components - shop lighting was not the place to inspect color.

Make sure you have a clear specification for how color is to be checked - light booth, spectrophotometer, etc. and that both sides agree.
  #4  
Old 20th June 2005, 12:02 PM
Adriane's Avatar
Adriane Adriane is offline
Involved - Posts

 
Registration Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ft. Wayne, Indiana, US
Age: 45
 
Posts: 29
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 39
Karma: 10
Adriane has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Gloss vs. Color

In my limited experience, the higher the gloss (the smoother the surface) the darker the color. A sample with a higher gloss would appear darker than an identically colored sample at a lower gloss.

As was said before, the angle of observation does play into the exact measurement of gloss. A good spectrophotometer allows you to view from a variety of angles. But to the naked eye the above is a general rule.

Adriane

__________________

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ~Vernon Sanders Law
  #5  
Old 20th June 2005, 03:44 PM
wslabey wslabey is offline
Involved - Posts

 
Registration Date: Jan 2004
Location: Michigan USA
 
Posts: 116
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Karma Power: 53
Karma: 120
wslabey is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.wslabey is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Adriane

In my limited experience, the higher the gloss (the smoother the surface) the darker the color. A sample with a higher gloss would appear darker than an identically colored sample at a lower gloss.

As was said before, the angle of observation does play into the exact measurement of gloss. A good spectrophotometer allows you to view from a variety of angles. But to the naked eye the above is a general rule.

Adriane
Welcome to the world of subjective evaluations always over-riding measurement tools. With all the tools available to measure color and paint quality it still ends up being subjectively reviewed by the customer in daylight.
  #6  
Old 20th June 2005, 04:51 PM
Craig H. Craig H. is offline
Inactive Registered Visitor

 
Registration Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mars
 
Posts: 2,054
Thanks Given to Others: 323
Thanked 312 Times in 241 Posts
Karma Power: 265
Karma: 5274
Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Craig H. is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Try this link:

http://www.goldenglowpaints.com/Arti...cles/GLOSS.htm

Also, Technidye has a good explaination of the C.I.E. colorspace on their web site. If you ever get a chance to go to their seminar, it is worth the time. And, no, I don't own stock.
  #7  
Old 20th June 2005, 09:15 PM
Randy's Avatar
Randy Randy is online now
Super Moderator

 
Registration Date: Jun 1999
Location: Greenwood (Ft Smith area), Arkansas, USA
Age: 62
 
Posts: 8,168
Thanks Given to Others: 48
Thanked 2,658 Times in 1,631 Posts
Karma Power: 916
Karma: 19726
Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Randy is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via Skype™ to Randy
As a painter of cars (commercially) in days gone by I recall that gloss adds depth to the color as opposed to darkening it (actually a touch of black in white paint deepens the white). You need to have a dark base to begin with that can be "roughened up' prior to the overlay of your gloss coats. Some folks liked to sand every coat of gloss as well, but I found that sanding every other coat really made the colors deepen (darken) and bust out. A viewing perspective of 90+/- a couple degrees was normally the optimum for full color richness (acute angles tend to reflect too much "white" light thereby lightening the color.

At least that's what I remember....Oh yeah, we used DuPont materials exclusively.

__________________

We who have seen war, will never stop seeing it. In the silence of the night, we will always hear the screams. Joe Galloway
  #8  
Old 21st June 2005, 01:49 AM
Scott G Scott G is offline
E-Mails Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle
Age: 46
 
Posts: 11
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 162
Scott G is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.Scott G is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
I am no color expert, but use a color spectrophotometer a few times a month to evaluate color in plastics.

There are several types of spectrophotometers with the 45/0 and the spherical being two of the most common. The 45/0 will take gloss into consideration and will call two samples of different textures different colors due to the gloss / even if they are the same pigments.

The spherical spectrophotometer has two ways of evaluating color spectural included or excluded (SPIN and SPEX). This is how it compensates for gloss. Measuring in SPIN mode the spectrophotometer will detect changes in color regardless of changes in gloss. SPIN mode allows us to compare the color of a glossy paint chip to a dull matte finished plastic. SPEX mode is similar to the 45/0 results.

The spectrophotometer converts light (color reflectance) into a mathematical formula (CIE LAB or other scale). It compares hue, saturation, lightness / darkness and plots the values on a 3-d graph. The results are then reported as a delta E value. In plastics the typical specs require a SPIN delta E value of less than 1.

When we first started using a spectrophotometer I was curious about how gloss would effect measurements. I took a molded texture sample plaque and compared different texture samples. This plaque was on one solid piece of plastic with multiple textures. I compared a rough texture to a polished glossy texture. SPIN mode was slightly influenced by the texture and reported a Delta E of less the 0.1. SPEX mode on the other hand reported a Delta E of over 7.

So even though the two textures sampled were identical in color visually the glossy sample looked darker and the SPEX mode confirmed this.

Debating color with vendors / our production / and customers is hard, because even using CIE LAB scale color can be subjective. Sometimes a color can have a Delta E value of over 2 but to the eye look like a close match, other times a Delta E of 1 looks like a horrible match.

One major aerospace customer of ours uses a spectrophotometer only to confirm what the eye has told the Inspector. The default is to look at the color match in a light booth under 6500 Kelvin lighting and only use a spectrophotometer in SPIN mode if the Inspector visually rejected the color match.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Manufacturing, Service, and Business Systems Processes > Manufacturing and Related Processes

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Gloss Checker vs. Gloss Meter differences - Horiba Gloss Checker IG-320? gpainter ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 7 19th July 2009 08:00 AM
Color Management - Confirming Color for Injection Molded Plastic Parts S.Karthik Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4 27th November 2008 02:14 AM
TS16949 Clause 7.1 in plastic pellet 'color mixing' and color compounding' process bramanta ISO/TS 16949 - International Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1 30th January 2008 08:02 AM
Fundamentals of Color and Appearance - Seminar with Nick Lena - Worth the cost? gpainter Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 0 11th May 2006 04:17 PM
Gloss Fade - Does anyone have any data on the fade of gloss on wood? gpainter Manufacturing and Related Processes 1 23rd March 2004 02:13 PM



The time now is 10:09 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272