Turtle Diagrams - Are Turtle Diagrams *Required* or not?

[KIDDO]

I checked the cove for a thread on Turtle Diagrams and read what was said about a consultant telling someone that we don't need them anymore; that they're dead! Most of the replies indicated that the consultant was "mis-informed". My consultant said the same thing today, June 30, 2005! He just finished up with a company and they received their TS-16949 certification without them.

Can someone show me something from IAOB?

Regards
kiddo

[Jennifer Kirley]

My search that included both "turtle diagram" and IAOB" uncovered this site. I hope it helps: http://www.aiag.org/forms/CADILLACAI...ationFinal.pdf

I'm a big believer in creating visual tools for process improvement, so I think why should turtle diagrams be "dead" if they help you?

I agree that they would not be a necessary piece of work for TS-16949 registration; they are tools to help you achieve an outcome. If you can do the same thing with other tools, very good.

[Bill Ryan]

To add on to Jennifer's reply - there is NO requirement for Turtle Diagrams (per the standard). They are a tool which many companies have found useful. Other companies can, and do, achieve the desired outcome with other means.

[db]

IT is interesting that your consulting said they were dead. I'm seeing more and more 3rd party auditors expecting internal auditors to be using them in internal audits. But there is no "shall", in Ts, that mandates turtle diagrams.

[ralphsulser]

Turtles are not dead, just not mandatory. I used turtles for our TS16949 system and the auditors liked them. Easier to understand inputs, outputs and support processes than text verbage. If you want to use them go ahead, you may get an "ataboy" from your registrar.

[Icy Mountain]

We just went through the TS Initial Audit. Both auditors asked for some kind of inputs and outputs diagram for every process at the beginning of the audit and were very happy when we produced turtles. We're organized into teams and every team has one. The auditors made copies and carried them with them throughout. They take care of the "sequence and interaction" very nicely. They are not required but they make external auditors happy and when the auditor is happy, everyone's happy.
-IC

[Jennifer Kirley]

All of these stories add to my suspicion that the consultants were bluffing, simply didn't know about the diagrams and wanted to steer away from the subject. Why else dismiss a potentially useful tool and say "Turtle diagrams are dead"? Just wondering...

[antoine.dias]

I did an electronic search in the IATF rules - second version May 2004 and found this :
During creation of the audit plan consider the IATF Automotive Process Approach, "customer oriented processes", support processes, "octopus", and "turtle" models utilized during the IATF training

So, in the IATF rules, as well as in the ISO TS there is no requirement to use turtles. The IATF just wants us to consider the tool as a good way....
and IMO they are a good tool to implement the process approach way of auditing/thinking.

Best regards,

Antoine