Non UKAS / EA / IAF accredited certification bodies - Certification company QMS

[Boing]

Hi all,

Recently I have been reviewing some of our supplier quality certificates and have come accross one or two that do not have the usual tick and crown (the UKAS symbol). The symbol they use is very similar (a tick and four square boxes).

After digging in a bit deeper it appears that this certification company (QMS) is not accredited by any accreditation body that is affiliated to UKAS via either the European Co-operation for Accreditation (EA) or the International Accreditation Forum (IAF), but is accredited by the International Accreditation Council.

One of the suppliers also claims to be Q1 registered without having TS16949 or QS9000.

As far as I know QMS provide a one-stop service where they write the manual and procedures and then audit the company against the documents they have written !

Has anyone else come accross this company or the accreditation body ??

And how valid / acceptable are the certificates...QMS claims they are accepted by a large number of companies including some very high profile automotive OEM's.

Any thoughts / comments would be very useful.

[Howard Atkins]

A certificate is valid if someone accepts it.
In TS it says specifically 7.4.1.2
unless otherwise specified by the customer...must be third part registered to ISO9001:2000 by an accredited third -part certification body.
There is thus only one way round using a non accredited body.
See also this thread Non UKAS certification bodies - reasons for their avoidance required...

[Sidney Vianna]

In Reply to Parent Post by Howard Atkins

A certificate is valid if someone accepts it.

This statement is simple, to the point and very wise.

In Reply to Parent Post by Howard Atkins

In TS it says specifically 7.4.1.2
unless otherwise specified by the customer...must be third part registered to ISO9001:2000 by an accredited third -part certification body.
There is thus only one way round using a non accredited body.

But that is a catch here. Some of these "alternative" CB's are becoming a little more sophisticated and using an "alternative" Accreditation Body to "give" them some credibility. The INTENT of the TS requirement is:
unless otherwise specified by the customer...must be third part registered to ISO9001:2000 by an IAF signatory accredited third-party certification body.

[Claes Gefvenberg]

In Reply to Parent Post by Boing

As far as I know QMS provide a one-stop service where they write the manual and procedures and then audit the company against the documents they have written !

Ouch.... That sounds like the (too) easy way out. I would be wary... I'm not very impressed by people getting their grades without doing their homework. Besides, there is no particular shortage of properly accredited registrars, is there?

In Reply to Parent Post by Boing

And how valid / acceptable are the certificates...QMS claims they are accepted by a large number of companies including some very high profile automotive OEM's.

How nice. Then, no doubt, they will be prepared to provide examples? I would ask...

/Claes

[chergh - 2008]

If it doesn't have the tick and crown on the certificate, for UK companies, then consider them as not being certified.

[Baldrick]

The company in question are well known to me, my previous role being in Supplier QA in a large company with many thousands of suppliers. When a critical supplier sent in an ISO9000 certificate awarded by this company, we rejected it immediately based on what we knew about them. When we explained to the (often distraught and/or embarrassed) QM or Managing Director of the company why we couldn't accept their approval, they were often taken aback at how easily and comprehensively they had been IN OUR OPINION duped.

I have to put this diplomatically - they are VERY CLEVER and VERY GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO. Their website is EXTREMELY CONVINCING. They responded to repeated criticism and rejection of their certificates by VERY CLEVERLY AND COMPLETELY LEGALLY becoming "accredited" to the so-called "Quality Accreditation Council", a relatively new organisation, based in Switzerland (which they describe as "The Home Of Quality").

You may wish to do some research on this body, and if you can find anything out about them at all (other than the fact that they are NOT recognised as an international equivalent to UKAS) then I hope this may help you to decide whether certificates issued in their name are worth the paper they are written on.

I would love to give you a more detailed personal opinion of this company, including details of some of the VERY CLEVER AND COMPLETELY LEGAL statements they make to clients about the value of the service they provide, but am unable to do so. My mother always told me that if you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all.

I believe that they are owned and/or run by a lawyer, which doesn't make it surprising that everything they do is both VERY CLEVER AND COMPLETELY LEGAL. You are quite right to say that one of the VERY CLEVER AND COMPLETELY LEGAL services that they offer is a one-stop service where they write the manual and procedures and then audit the company against the documents they have written.

Did I mention (for the benefit of the tape) that this company does NOTHING ILLEGAL?.....

[sonflowerinwales]

Boing
I afraid to say I've seen these people in action. A routine 12 month audit to IS9001 took 1.5 hours, including coffee. I had been asked by the customer to go in to provide "visible" support to the team as I was providing an inspection service then.
If I get a certificate submitted from a supplier from QMS, or anyone else not UKAS accredited, then I ensure a site audit is completed and an comprehensive report issued. And also treat them with extreme caution.
They do provide a "buy a certificate" scheme, nothing to do with quality.
Paul

[Claes Gefvenberg]

In Reply to Parent Post by Baldrick

I have to put this diplomatically

Fortunately, you don't have to... I think this link to EXTRACT FROM ENDS REPORT #364 MAY 2005 will do very nicely.

/Claes