Does Delphi's requirement for layered process audits only apply to their products?

[The Moose]

We are going for our TS stage 2 audit next week and I have a Dilema with a CSR. I think I know the answer, but all advice is welcomed

We have Delphi as a customer, and part of their CSR's is a requirement for layered audits, to be carried out daily by op's staff, weekly by middle managment and monthly by the Plant Manager.

However we only do one product for Delphi, which runs (at most) two days,every three to four months (hardly seems worth the effort - I know). Does Delphi's requirement for layered audits only apply to their products and if so how will I ever be able to show compliance to this CSR if it hardly ever runs to be audited? Or must I carry out Layered Audits to the timescales given, regardless of what running

[Bill Ryan]

Our take is that the Layered Process Audit would only apply to Delphi specific product. As long as you have the procedure in place and functioning each time you run their product, you're covered.

If you really think about it, if each CSR was to apply to every part you manufacture, why would we (suppliers) be held accountable for anything regarding policies/procedures? In other words CSRs, if taken as meant to be applied "universally", could (most likely WOULD) conflict, after all this is the automotive world . I don't think I'm expressing this as well as I should be - Every customer of ours has an idea that has helped them improve in some manner. Because it worked for them, they decide that ramrodding that same process down a supplier's throat will solve all their "supplier ills". It doesn't work that way. An example - Delphi pushes (forces?) the 5-Why approach to Problem Solving. Another customer of ours pushes a different technique (and on and on...). These are both CSRs but could not possibly be applied "universally" to all products. Yet we have to apply the specific format to reply to the specific customer. (As I've ranted before ) a wonderful example of "value added" stuff we, as suppliers, are forced to go through and yet give price breaks every year.

Sorry for the disjointed response but I hope I've answered your question somewhere in there, from my perspective.

[The Moose]

Thanks Bill, that pretty much sums up what I was thinking,

On a similar note I also received an interesting letter from Du Pont's plastic resin business today, stating that due to the excessive demands placed on them by the various CSR's, all their European sites are to drop TS certification, although they will still work in "compliance" to TS (if you can be, when you dont accept CSR's) and in their words "We will continue working with the industry to make ISO/TS 16949:2002 the tool it is intended to be"

[Cari Spears]

Originally Posted by Bill Ryan

Every customer of ours has an idea that has helped them improve in some manner. Because it worked for them, they decide that ramrodding that same process down a supplier's throat will solve all their "supplier ills". It doesn't work that way. An example - Delphi pushes (forces?) the 5-Why approach to Problem Solving. Another customer of ours pushes a different technique (and on and on...). These are both CSRs but could not possibly be applied "universally" to all products. Yet we have to apply the specific format to reply to the specific customer.

Right on.

[ralphsulser]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bill Ryan) Every customer of ours has an idea that has helped them improve in some manner. Because it worked for them, they decide that ramrodding that same process down a supplier's throat will solve all their "supplier ills". It doesn't work that way. An example - Delphi pushes (forces?) the 5-Why approach to Problem Solving. Another customer of ours pushes a different technique (and on and on...). These are both CSRs but could not possibly be applied "universally" to all products. Yet we have to apply the specific format to reply to the specific customer.

Yeah, you got it. I am wondering why we went to all the expense and training to get TS16949 certified because we are getting bombarded with CSRs, and supplier manuals, etc,etc,. What happened to the one uiniversal approved system. This is going back to the way it was done 30 years ago.
Every customer had their own system and came in to beat you up.

[chaosweary]

The TS doesn't help any by supporting the CSRs. I believe the CSRs should be put into the contract OR studied very carefully for ROI. At somepoint the cost of doing these CSRs is greater than the benefit of doing business.

[The Moose]

Originally Posted by chaosweary

At somepoint the cost of doing these CSRs is greater than the benefit of doing business.

Thats exactly where the company I work for is at the moment, but it's what someone just moving into automotive has to do to get a foot in the door

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by The Moose

We are going for our TS stage 2 audit next week and I have a Dilema with a CSR. I think I know the answer, but all advice is welcomed

We have Delphi as a customer, and part of their CSR's is a requirement for layered audits, to be carried out daily by op's staff, weekly by middle managment and monthly by the Plant Manager.

However we only do one product for Delphi, which runs (at most) two days,every three to four months (hardly seems worth the effort - I know). Does Delphi's requirement for layered audits only apply to their products and if so how will I ever be able to show compliance to this CSR if it hardly ever runs to be audited? Or must I carry out Layered Audits to the timescales given, regardless of what running

CSRs, by definition, are Customer Specific Requirements, and as such, do NOT need to be applied "universally." If you find a particular requirement would be useful to a different customer, that is your prerogative, but it is not required.

I also sympathize with the proliferation of each customer coming out with their flavor of CSR requirements. It does miss the point. I think some are appropriate, but some merely take the place of a customer having to think things through.

The marketplace has a way of sorting it out over time.