The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements
Forum Username


Search the Elsmar Cove
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page  Elsmar Cove Twitter Feed
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Sponsor Links





Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access

Click the graphic above.
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:

Howard's
International Quality Services
Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting
Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook
IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Quality Digest Portal
IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology
ASQ - American Society for Quality
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th January 2007, 07:26 AM
Quality-Misfit - 2008 Quality-Misfit - 2008 is offline
Email Address Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Jan 2007
Location: US
 
Posts: 34
Thanks Given to Others: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Quality-Misfit - 2008 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Thank You! Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Hello Cove,

I have a few questions about form 2.

Question 1: Does the statement "Make From" mean that if we (production) take any type of raw materials i.e. we use a liquid plastic to make a earpiece it has to be recorded ? If so what has to be recorded?

Question 2: Does Standard Catalog hardware have to be recorded here as well? I thought they were excluded per section 4 of the AS specification but it is mention here.

Question 3: Also under the special processes the only thing done is soldering "done by our internal IPC certified solders" do we have to record anything here or is it covered by our job traveler?


Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

qm

Last edited by Quality-Misfit - 2008; 24th January 2007 at 07:39 AM.

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 24th January 2007, 10:59 AM
andygr's Avatar
andygr andygr is offline
Registered Visitor

 
Registration Date: Mar 2006
Location: IL
 
Posts: 434
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 208 Times in 148 Posts
Karma Power: 80
Karma: 1717
andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Question 1- You need to indicate what the raw material is and the ref the applicable spec if any. It may just be the suppliers controling doc such as a tech data sheet.

Question 2- You have to record standard catalog items used and the verification is covered by referancing the C of C number. You do not have to inspect any variable property of standard catalog itmes. If your design strictly calles out a suppliers part number no verification is required other than the CofC.

Question 3- For special processes you only need to cover if it a process is defined a "special" by you ( for F/A performed by subtiers) or your customer.
You have to show how it is verified that if required that you have meet all the applicable requirements for being approved. For example if you are required to have Customer XYZ approval then you need to referance the applicable approval document. Aerospace calles for Heat Treat to Nadcap and you would list you Nadcap approval as evidance of compliance.
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 24th January 2007, 11:08 AM
Quality-Misfit - 2008 Quality-Misfit - 2008 is offline
Email Address Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Jan 2007
Location: US
 
Posts: 34
Thanks Given to Others: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Quality-Misfit - 2008 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by andygr View Post

Question 1- You need to indicate what the raw material is and the ref the applicable spec if any. It may just be the suppliers controling doc such as a tech data sheet.



Question 2- You have to record standard catalog items used and the verification is covered by referancing the C of C number. You do not have to inspect any variable property of standard catalog itmes. If your design strictly calles out a suppliers part number no verification is required other than the CofC.


Question 3- For special processes you only need to cover if it a process is defined a "special" by you ( for F/A performed by subtiers) or your customer.
You have to show how it is verified that if required that you have meet all the applicable requirements for being approved. For example if you are required to have Customer XYZ approval then you need to referance the applicable approval document. Aerospace calles for Heat Treat to Nadcap and you would list you Nadcap approval as evidance of compliance.

Refernce 1: The oem is buying to our drawings and is using our drawings as their "Source control" So do we only have to list the plastic oems data sheet?

Reference 2: So this would be Stainless steel screw CofC number 12345? Do we have to list all the components that is in this unit? We have screws, nuts, plastic fittings, etc...maybe over 50 COTS items that go into this widget along with their C of C's.


Reference 3: How does this tie to soldering we do not have any of the special treatments defined by NADCAP. We're strickly an assembly shop. So unless we define soldering as a special process we don't have any.


Thanks.

qm

Last edited by Quality-Misfit - 2008; 24th January 2007 at 11:18 AM.
  #4  
Old 24th January 2007, 11:18 AM
andygr's Avatar
andygr andygr is offline
Registered Visitor

 
Registration Date: Mar 2006
Location: IL
 
Posts: 434
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 208 Times in 148 Posts
Karma Power: 80
Karma: 1717
andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Listing the supplers data sheet number for the plastic is all you need if that is what you called out in your design. If some one got fancy and created a internal spec then you have to verify. If not then only a ref to the C of C is only required. For the screw it probly is called out as a MS number of some other call out. You would list that and verification would be the C of C # xxx line item 3.

The Nadcap referance was only an example of flow down. In your case what would happen if you did not use IPC certifed solderers? If you are violating a customer or regulatory requirement then evidance of compliance is required with out a doubt. If it is called out as part of your processing spec it has to be covered a as part of the spec verification. If it is just a general shop practice ( good practice it is) you do not have to account for it on the FAI.
Hope this clears it up.
  #5  
Old 24th January 2007, 11:33 AM
Quality-Misfit - 2008 Quality-Misfit - 2008 is offline
Email Address Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Jan 2007
Location: US
 
Posts: 34
Thanks Given to Others: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Quality-Misfit - 2008 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by andygr View Post

Listing the supplers data sheet number for the plastic is all you need if that is what you called out in your design. If some one got fancy and created a internal spec then you have to verify. If not then only a ref to the C of C is only required. For the screw it probly is called out as a MS number of some other call out. You would list that and verification would be the C of C # xxx line item 3.

The Nadcap referance was only an example of flow down. In your case what would happen if you did not use IPC certifed solderers? If you are violating a customer or regulatory requirement then evidance of compliance is required with out a doubt. If it is called out as part of your processing spec it has to be covered a as part of the spec verification. If it is just a general shop practice ( good practice it is) you do not have to account for it on the FAI.
Hope this clears it up.

Andygr,

Thanks for your help, so in wraping this up.

1: We'll just list the raw material along with the suppliers data sheet

2: All hardware has to be called out?

As I stated earlier we have over 50 items that goes into the widgets top level assembly from screws, nuts, fastners, rubber gromets, etc.. all of these items that go into the item has to be recorded on our FAI?

I guess this also applies to any subassemblies as well.

Also on a side note how far down do you go into the subassemblies? If the oem is buying to our drawing?

3. IPC is only for our requirement and not mandated by our customer. So it does not have to be accounted for in the FAI.


qm

Last edited by Quality-Misfit - 2008; 24th January 2007 at 11:35 AM. Reason: can't speel
  #6  
Old 24th January 2007, 12:06 PM
RCW's Avatar
RCW RCW is offline
Appreciated Member

 
Registration Date: Oct 2001
Location: IL
 
Posts: 431
Thanks Given to Others: 28
Thanked 49 Times in 37 Posts
Karma Power: 95
Karma: 342
RCW is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.RCW is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.RCW is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.RCW is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Sorry to intrude and possibly cause more confusion but I have the following comments.

Re: #2....I haven't included any standard catalog items on FAI forms (yet) and I haven't gotten any feedback to the contrary from my customers. I do have in my internal quality procedure that standard catalog items will be processed via our normal incoming inspection procedures and will not be listed on FAI forms. As far as referencing a C of C number, I do have C of C's on file to cover my backside for these items but many of these don't contain a reference number. In my own case, this wouldn't work well to use this on the FAI form.

Re: #3....In addition to what andygr touched on, some customers define special processes (heat treating, anodizing, even soldering) that have to be performed by their own approved vendors. If this is the case, which it sounds like it isn't, then the special process and approved vendor is listed on form 2. While you, Quality-Misfit, are peforming a soldering tasks, it sounds like your customer is not placing this requirement on you.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by RCW; 24th January 2007 at 12:37 PM.
  #7  
Old 24th January 2007, 12:17 PM
Quality-Misfit - 2008 Quality-Misfit - 2008 is offline
Email Address Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Jan 2007
Location: US
 
Posts: 34
Thanks Given to Others: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Quality-Misfit - 2008 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by RCW View Post

Sorry to intrude and possibly cause more confusion but I have the following comments.

Re: #2....I haven't included any standard catalog items on FAI forms (yet) and I haven't gotten any feedback to the contrary from my customers. I do have in my internal quality procedure that standard catalog items will be processed via our normal incoming inspection procedures and will not be listed on FAI forms. As far as referencing a C of C number, I do have C of C's on file to cover my backside for these items but many of these don't contain a reference number. In my own case, this wouldn't work well to use this on the FAI form.

Re: #3....In addition to what andygr touched on, some customers define special processes (heat treating, anodizing, even soldering) that have to be performed by their own approved vendors. If this is the case, which it sounds like it isn't, then the special process and approved vendor is listed on form 3. While you, Quality-Misfit, are peforming a soldering tasks, it sounds like your customer is not placing this requirement on you.

Hope this helps.
So you've excluded the lisiting of hardware on form 2 for an AS9102 FAI? Again my concern is lisitng all of these items, most of my c of c's have no reference number on them.

Again we're currently not doing any special processes i.e. heat treating , etc only soldering.

Thanks,

qm
  #8  
Old 24th January 2007, 12:25 PM
andygr's Avatar
andygr andygr is offline
Registered Visitor

 
Registration Date: Mar 2006
Location: IL
 
Posts: 434
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 208 Times in 148 Posts
Karma Power: 80
Karma: 1717
andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.andygr is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Need help with AS9102 form #2.

For certifications that have no unique number you can use PO# and date of supplier cert.
Just have to be able to get there from here.

"All hardware has to be called out? "

Yes it does. For example Electronic FAI are a bear with all the components that they contain. The only thing that can save some work is that you can cross referance components that are covered already.

"I guess this also applies to any subassemblies as well."
Yes

"Also on a side note how far down do you go into the subassemblies? If the oem is buying to our drawing?"
Only if you get them to cover you in writing to only need top level FAI can you stop there. This also can get into what you want to keep from them as priporitary information. Talk to them and work it out. I personaly recomend that even if they do not require you to perform the sublevels that you do them any way as the AS9102 FAI process does allow you to truly verify that production matches design.

Last edited by andygr; 24th January 2007 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Clarify cert tracking
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) Form example ttwerp65 - 2009 Documentation Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 30 21st June 2013 02:00 PM
Another FAI AS9102 form question tonefordays Documentation Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3 12th November 2011 09:54 AM
AS9102 - How to title the attached form and how to identify the characteristics DAHSR AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 4 29th April 2010 11:13 AM
AS9102 Form 2 and Standard Hardware clarification CDZ Ryan AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 4 1st October 2008 12:04 PM
AS9102 Form - Do you hate it as much as I do? Kevo25 AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 27 29th September 2008 11:28 AM



The time now is 01:10 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272