The Elsmar Cove Forum and Site Map The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > National and International Business Standards > RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances Related Regulations


The Elsmar Cove Forum SideBar!
Monitor the Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
New Threads Feeds
RSS FeedRSS Feed
Sponsor Link










$ Contributor Forum Access
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's International Quality Services

Atul's Symphony Technologies

Dave Scott's Scott Quality Solutions

Praxiom Research Group


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality


All the Important Standards and Related Web Sites in the World
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18th March 2007, 06:59 AM
Eusoof Eusoof is offline
Getting Involved (6 to 9 Posts)

Registration Date: Aug 2006
Location: malaysia
 
Posts: 8
Thanks Given to Others: 3
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Karma Power: 14
Karma: 15
Eusoof has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Please Help! XRF vs. Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

I want to share my experience with my raw material supplier where i have use XRF machine to test if their material are compliance with RoHS requirement or not. From my finding that that raw material (lead substance) are exceed than 3500 ppm and then 3 times repeated test show the same result (note that xrf just for screening propose only). Then i have complaint to supplier that they said their use spark test that more reliable test than our. So my question are bellow :

1.)Although that XRF for screening purpose but show result same result (more than 3500 ppm) that means that material have problem?

2.)Can you share knowledge how to read the mill certtificate figure?

3.)What is spark test?

Thankz

Last edited by Al Rosen; 19th March 2007 at 01:47 PM.
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 19th March 2007, 05:30 AM
harry harry is offline
Super Moderator

Registration Date: Sep 2005
Location: Johore/Malaysia
 
Posts: 2,944
Thanks Given to Others: 571
Thanked 1,031 Times in 746 Posts
Blog Entries: 1
Karma Power: 231
Karma: 7783
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

The results certainly look bad. In such circumstances, we normally have to ask the following questions:
  • Is your instrument calibrated?
  • Are you using the right or approved methods in your analysis? Sorry, but you sound rather green. Do you have recommended testing methods for RoHS?
  • Is the material homogeneous?
  • Are there any coating/painting over the tested area which may unduly affect the ray penetration and therefore results.
  • Have you been trained for this purpose?
You should ask your supplier to show their test results or certificates from recognised independent labs and explain them. If you are not satisfied, you can arrange them to be tested at a lab of your choice.

I am not aware of what a spark test means but if XRF results are in doubt, the recommended method is to use inductively coupled plasma atomic adsorption or emission spectrometry (AAS or AES) method for more detail and accurate results.

Last edited by Al Rosen; 19th March 2007 at 01:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 20th March 2007, 03:48 AM
fireonce's Avatar
fireonce fireonce is offline
E-Mails Invalid or Rejected

Registration Date: Dec 2006
 
Posts: 190
Thanks Given to Others: 1
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 120
fireonce is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.fireonce is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusoof View Post

I want to share my experience with my raw material supplier where i have use XRF machine to test if their material are compliance with RoHS requirement or not. From my finding that that raw material (lead substance) are exceed than 3500 ppm and then 3 times repeated test show the same result (note that xrf just for screening propose only). Then i have complaint to supplier that they said their use spark test that more reliable test than our. So my question are bellow :
...
Thankz
I think you are right.
As I know, XRF's precision is above 70%,and the result of your company is available,you are supposed to confirm with your supplier again.

The spark-test method specified in this standard is intended for the detection of defects in the insulation or sheathing layers of electric cables. For single core cables with no outer metallic layer, the general process is accepted as being equivalent to subjecting samples of those cables to a voltage test in water. This standard specifies the operational requirements for the spark-test equipment, as well as the principal characteristics, functional parameters and calibration procedures for each type of test equipment
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th March 2007, 09:53 AM
chergh chergh is offline
On Holiday

Registration Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Age: 32
 
Posts: 398
Thanks Given to Others: 6
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 1440
chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

XRF isn't suitable for quantitative measurement, it's semi quantitative at best. The 3,500 ppm figure you have is unlikely to be accurate so you need to send off your material to be analysed using ICPMS. Once you have that you can go to your supplier.

As for spark testing??? I think your supplier must have misunderstood you as how a spark test is going to give information on lead content is beyond me.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20th March 2007, 10:36 AM
harry harry is offline
Super Moderator

Registration Date: Sep 2005
Location: Johore/Malaysia
 
Posts: 2,944
Thanks Given to Others: 571
Thanked 1,031 Times in 746 Posts
Blog Entries: 1
Karma Power: 231
Karma: 7783
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs. Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

The OP is referring to the Optical emission spectrometry (OES) using arc and spark excitation method and not the leakage test which has nothing to do with RoHS.

I am not familiar with this method although its being used quite extensively in the metal industry but had not seen it being recommended in any RoHS related documents.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20th March 2007, 10:42 AM
Benjamin28 Benjamin28 is offline
Tater Salad

Registration Date: Dec 2006
Location: CT
 
Posts: 379
Thanks Given to Others: 89
Thanked 149 Times in 107 Posts
Karma Power: 37
Karma: 922
Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.Benjamin28 is appreciated, and has over 900 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs. Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

Optical Emission Spectrometry using arc/spark is indeed the preferred method for chemical composition analysis over XRF.

I wonder if your XRF is appropriately calibrated. I suppose if you really wanted to pursue it further you could have an independant lab analyze the sample and compare the results, somewhat like a round robin test.

Interestingly enough, spark testing in the old days used to be performed by operators who needed to quickly identify an alloy type, they would put the metal against a grind wheel and by seeing how long the spark was that it created, it's brightness and color they could determine what alloy they were holding. I'm certain your material supplier is using OES spark/arc and not the old spark method though lol.

What specifically are you asking about as far as interpreting certificate results?

One other thing, as stated in a previous post, XRF is semi-quant, meaning that you can find that XY elements are detectable at approximate levels, so your >3500ppm may well be incorrect as it is an approximation, whereas the spark test will tell you with much greater accuracy what % or ppm of that element is present.

Last edited by Benjamin28; 20th March 2007 at 10:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20th March 2007, 10:56 AM
chergh chergh is offline
On Holiday

Registration Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Age: 32
 
Posts: 398
Thanks Given to Others: 6
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 1440
chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.chergh is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs. Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

Using oes is certainly better than XRF, just never heard oes methods referred to as a spark test.

XRF should be seen as indicative only and should not be used quantitavley. The official method for determining lead content for RoHS is ICPMS (inductivley coupled plasma mass spectroscopy). This is more sensitive than OES methods but at 1,000 ppm (maximum allowable concentration of lead from RoHS) you are magnitudes above the limit of detection even when using OES methods.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20th March 2007, 12:09 PM
harry harry is offline
Super Moderator

Registration Date: Sep 2005
Location: Johore/Malaysia
 
Posts: 2,944
Thanks Given to Others: 571
Thanked 1,031 Times in 746 Posts
Blog Entries: 1
Karma Power: 231
Karma: 7783
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.harry is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default Re: XRF vs. Spark Test for RoHS Compliance Verification

Just check the China RoHS documents and OES is also not among the recommended method. To the OP (Eusoof - if he still visits this thread) you can reject your supplier's result and demand that he produce one using RoHS recommended methods or one from an approved lab. (Bear in mind that Sony usually accept only SGS lab. reports over here)

A number of methods are recommended in RoHS documents - each being suitable under different conditions. To clear the confusion, I attached here a document on RoHS testing methods for those who are interested.
Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before using, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting the post it is in, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: pdf rohs_test_methods.pdf (552.5 KB, 128 views)
Reply With Quote
Thanks to harry for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > National and International Business Standards > RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances Related Regulations

Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors and 1 Unregistered Guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
XRF Analysis - "Worst Case" for an XRF test method? achorste ISO 17025 - Calibration, Measurement Gages and Test Laboratories 4 4th February 2009 12:58 PM
XRF Capabilities - Correlating 2 different XRF machines - Ni/Au parts FPT2001 Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Process, Machine, etc. 7 25th July 2008 01:17 PM
Electronic Part Lifecycle and Compliance Management (RoHS, WEEE) anandnarasi Student Research Questions - Any Educational Institution 1 5th April 2008 09:17 AM
Certification of Raw Materials for RoHs Compliance apurdey RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances Related Regulations 3 19th October 2007 10:58 AM
Method of Identifying and Segregating of RoHS Compliance Material inash9779 RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances Related Regulations 7 2nd August 2006 06:07 AM



The time now is 09:49 AM. All times are GMT -4.
The time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



   

All Y'All Come Back Now, Y' Hear?

Made With A Mac! FreeBSD OS Powered by Apache!
Using php4 Forums provided and maintained by Marc Smith Database by MySQL

FAIR USE and CORRECTNESS NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe herein constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. In addition, I do not guarantee the correctness of the content. The risk of using content from the Elsmar Cove web site and forums remains with the user/visitor.

Responsibility Statement: Each person is responsible for anything they post in the Elsmar Cove forum. Neither I, Marc Timothy Smith, nor any of the forum Moderators, are responsible for the content of posts people make. Liability for post content resides with the poster as does interpretation and/or acceptance and/or use of advice by the reader.

Complaints: If you have a complaint with a post in a forum discussion thread, including Content in general, fighting, flaming, copyright infringement, defamation and/or 'slander', please use the 'Report This Post Report This Post Button button which appears at the top of every post in every thread.

Site courtesy of:
Marc Timothy Smith - Cayman Business Systems, 8466 Lesourdsville-West Chester Road, West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929 - USA
(513) 341-6272

To contact me, click the Google Voice link below, enter Your Name and Your Phone Number and Google will ring your phone and connect you for free!

The Elsmar Cove Web Site is *CopyFree*
no new posts