Documenting Processes such as Receiving Inspection, and Auditing to Turtle Diagrams

[Rambler]

(1) I read that there are only 7 QPs for ISO/ TS 16949 required. Questions are: do we need to document processes such as `Incoming QC inspection', `Inprocess QC inspection' ...

If we don't need to document them, how do we adopt a standard way of performing the work?

(2) I'm used to ISO 9000 whereby audits are based on QPs. Understand that TS audits are based on turtle diagram. How is such an audit conducted?

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by Rambler

(1) I read that there are only 7 QPs for ISO/ TS 16949 required. Questions are: do we need to document processes such as `Incoming QC inspection', `Inprocess QC inspection' ...

If we don't need to document them, how do we adopt a standard way of performing the work?

(2) I'm used to ISO 9000 whereby audits are based on QPs. Understand that TS audits are based on turtle diagram. How is such an audit conducted?

Dear Friend, it is clear from your post that you are struggling to understand the requirements. It would be beneficial to reread the TS-16949 standard a few more times. Each time it will become clearer.

It might also be useful to read ISO 9004:2000 (note I said 9004 not 9001). It gives much good information. If you have not had formal training classes, perhaps they would be helpful as well. It is much better to tackle TS with proper training and reading.

As to your questions, TS clause 4.2.1.c mentions that sentence that certain procedures (7) are required by the standard, AND cl 4.2.1.d says AND any OTHER documents needed by the organization to ensure it's processes are in control. In other words, the standard expects YOU to define which documents you feel you need, in addition to the first 7 procedures. No company should attempt to run it with only the first 7. That was never the intent.

So, if you feel you would benefit from a procedure or instruction defining inspection, then by all means write it. This requirement merely allows you to NOT write docuemnts you don't feel would be beneficial.

Good Luck.

[Rambler]

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?

[Bill Ryan]

Originally Posted by Rambler

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?

Welcome to the Cove

Turtle diagrams are NOT a requirement. Neither are Flow diagrams of any type. A lot (most?) companies have employed one or the other as a means to disply/describe their process interactions. A "text description" is another option.

Good luck with your task. The timeline appears rather agressive to me.

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by Rambler

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?

Both TS and ISO 9001 require the system to define and audit by the process approach. (Auditing QP's can be part of that approach). Neither standard actually requires Turtle diagrams, flowcharts, etc. but they are a helpful way to describe the interactions.

[Rambler]

Thanks Bill and Hijing for your advice. Yeah, my boss is very aggressive on this. I was and am still at a loss how to go about it with no guidance.

I'm following Hijing's advice now to read and re-read the TS several times. I just completed the turtle diagram after my boss' constant poundings and embarassing me in front of the whole factory that I have done `nothing'. Nevertheless, my turtle diagram is now rejected by the sales manager with no explanation.

I am biting the bullet to go through this recertification so that I can gain the TS experience.

May I know what else can I do?

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by Rambler

Thanks Bill and Hijing for your advice. Yeah, my boss is very aggressive on this. I was and am still at a loss how to go about it with no guidance.

I'm following Hijing's advice now to read and re-read the TS several times. I just completed the turtle diagram after my boss' constant poundings and embarassing me in front of the whole factory that I have done `nothing'. Nevertheless, my turtle diagram is now rejected by the sales manager with no explanation.

I am biting the bullet to go through this recertification so that I can gain the TS experience.

May I know what else can I do?

Remember, a Turtle Diagram only shows the details for one process. If you did a Turtle for the Sales process, for example, you should work with the Sales Manager to identify the different parts of the Turtle.

Somewhere on this Cove, I posted a modified Turtle diagram that is easier to use, and more complete. It might be useful to you to try it.

[Jennifer Kirley]

Welcome to the cove, Rambler.

I do not know who told you that turtle diagrams are needed for TS; they are not required.

If nothing exists, turtle diagrams alone may not be enough to show controls in auditing and inspection processes. If the processes are recorded with procedures, then the "turtles" are not needed. There's no point in having a stack of various things for the same process.

I find turtles most helpful when a process has no clear governing document. It merely organizes the aspects of a process into topics.

If you are trying to establish process documents from the beginning, flow charts may be the best way to start. A flow chart can be included in a procedure as an attachment or appendix. Doing that could simplify the procedure into listing tools, materials, requirements, related processes and responsibilities.

It sounds like you could benefit from some added support on this. Why don't you see if you can find your closest ASQ chapter and visit them on a meeting night? Maybe they have a library of books to help you or a class you could attend. Do a Google search with the words ASQ and your state to find more QA professionals and resources in your area.

Meanwhile, please feel free to use the Search function in the tool bar. There are lots of attachments in this forum, and a number of threads on subjects like yours.