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  #1  
Old 24th April 2007, 09:19 AM
Benjamin28 Benjamin28 is offline
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I Say... Audit by Element vs. Audit by Process

Good morning everyone,

Had an item I was working on and was hoping some of you more experienced with process auditing could make suggestions or additions. I'm working on generating a document which briefly outlines the benefits of a process approach vs an audit by element approach.

The first portion is benefits listed in the process approach document available as an attachment on this site...I forget who posted it but thank you, I found it quite useful. Anyhow, here's what I have so far, any additions comments would be useful...it's part of a pitch to sell the idea of internal audits by process to management.

Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before using, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting the post it is in, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: doc Internal Audits.doc (27.0 KB, 447 views)
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Old 24th April 2007, 10:01 AM
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

Hi Benjamin,

That's a nice list of potential benefits of process auditing, and it's pretty long.

I'd use caution when including itens like:

•Provision of confidence to customers, and other interested parties, about the consistent performance of the organization.
•Transparency of operations within the organization.
•Lower costs and shorter cycle times, through the effective use of resources.
•Improved, consistent and predictable results.

You'd need to be ready to describe just how these would be accomplished by a different auditing method.

When you address that, please consider your auditor's abilities and talents. Will he/she be able, and have time, to analyze a process instead of using the current checklist approach? Management will need to understand that resources would be needed to build strength in the audit function.

It might help if the auditor is able to do some things besides audit, but could also help people understand what proper process documentation looks like, and how to design data analysis tools so they can track progress and results.

The move away from police work and into some provision of services can be helpful in getting management support.

Good luck with this.
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  #3  
Old 24th April 2007, 10:21 AM
Benjamin28 Benjamin28 is offline
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

Thanks Jennifer,

As your post suggests, in your usual insight, the initiative would be to improve the internal audit function by improving not only the method of auditing/approach but also improving auditor skill (myself in this scenario). It is quite obvious that certain processes in our organization are lacking standardization (i.e. procedures are vague or don't exist where they should).

It is my hope that this approach to auditing, will encourage management to address these processes. And frankly, this approach makes 100 times more sense to me than auditing by element. I can go down a checklist and yes, maybe all items are addressed...but if the process is not robust and appropriately defined, will all items be addressed everytime, not likely.

As for being able to elaborate on the details of these potential benefits, I don't think it will be too difficult. I think the difficulty, in my case, will be getting management to take action when process inefficiency or opportunities for improvement are identified. I expect to get "we've done it this way, it works, we'll continue doing it this way" as a response, if I get a response at all that is.

One can only try their best
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Old 24th April 2007, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

One thing that a process audit can do is show how one part of a process impacts another one, especially across departments. The interdependency of contributing functions can be near-unnoticeable in a compliance audit. That's no doubt why TS mandates a process audit approach. Selling the potential exposure of weaknesses can be tough when managers believe that sales and returns rates are satisfactory.

The selling point not so much the audit function, but the internal consultant potential. The difference in expertise can be especially noticeable where process documentation is involved. For example, support people like software engineers may not be very comfortable with writing procedures that process people can use. A good process auditor can help with document editing and even making flow charts if one does not feel one is interfering or getting too closely involved. However, these services can be a lot of added work.

If you can show examples that support the theory that tidying up processes would result in, say, less product returns or shorter cycle times, management would probably listen. The language of money is the one that gets the best support. But be careful with this language! One should only offer examples, speculations grounded in reality, and be ready to help support the efforts to assess for success. It's a whole other Genie bottle...
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Old 24th April 2007, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

Frankly, auditing by process vs. element is just another view of the same thing ... both have advantages and disadvantages.

Imaging you are auditing by process ... you'll cover many elements of the standard, but less depth. If you audit by element, you get greater depth of that element, but less breadth of the system. If you have 1000 gages in your calibration system, a process audit will likely see only a small number, whereas doing a calibration element audit would see a larger number.
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Old 24th April 2007, 04:29 PM
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Look! Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

For purpose of preparation of such summary I would strongly recommend taking a reputable input and making a digest of it.
See for example this one:
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/iso9000-14...toolC_2-01.pdf

(ISO 19011 is to provide the "Guidelines for quality and/or environmental
management systems auditing" for process-based QMS.)
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Old 3rd May 2007, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

Looking for some feedback...

As I stated I have been attempting to augment our internal audit process by transitioning the focus from audit by element to audit by process approach. The difficulty is that the internal management structure isn't a process management system in the true sense. With that in mind I'm thinking it would not be a successful venture to simply do an internal audit of each of the processes here, the result would be an avalanche of non-conformances which would most likely result in unhappy staff and little action.

So what I'm thinking now is that the best approach may be to take smaller steps towards this goal. In that respect I was thinking that perhaps I could integrate a form of process auditing into our current structure (audit by element by department). The idea is to continue the internal audit system as it is now, but to put more of a focus on identifying inputs and outputs, and resources in each department, from there we could trace inputs/outputs to better establish process linkages, dependancies, and general interaction.

I have no doubt that the best opportunity for improvement here lies in transitioning the management system to a process oriented one. Out of 43 errors in a year 34 occurred within supporting processes, only 9 were caused by the testing & analysis process...that's my 80/20 right there.

Anyways, the feedback I'm looking for...has anyone here experienced such a transition? What are the pitfalls? What worked best?

We are a small company so for in order for this to work I think we'll need to slowly identify processes on a 1:1 basis and fully define them and enhance their procedures accordingly before moving onto the next. Once that's done we can begin to look at their interaction in more detail and start down a road to improvement and more robust internal auditing.

Your thoughts and suggestions would be most welcome
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Old 3rd May 2007, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Audit by Element vs Audit by Process

It's not a surprise if most nonconformances are in support processes. It's easy to lose focus on what goes into a process when the fixation is on making stuff.

One big source of discomfort in transitioning is the amount of what I'll call churn with the process auditing method. It opens up opportunity for more conconformances than simple compliance. Viewing larger numbers of nonconformances can make people unhappy.

It's been worthwhile to recogognize that the process nature of nonconformances may require a process approach to correcting them. Thus, the CA Project was born. It allows a CA owner to plan around the fact that more than one department is needed, and it can show justification for taking longer than 30 days for a fix so something that works can be put in place.
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