ISO 9001:2000 clause 6.2.2 e) - records of education

[debbie135]

Hi everyone

Standard says that the organization shall maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience

If a requirement for a job is that an applicant has a degree in chemistry is it a necessity to get a copy of the document or do you think most employees take it at face value that an applicant can do what they say they can do from their C.V and take up references from a previous employer to underpin the applicants competence to do the job (very long sentence, sorry !)

We in this company do not have records of every educational qualifications which an employee says they have obtained and so technically it looks like we would fail on this part of the standard

Thanks

[Ted Schmitt]

In Reply to Parent Post by debbie135

Hi everyone

Standard says that the organization shall maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience

If a requirement for a job is that an applicant has a degree in chemistry is it a necessity to get a copy of the document or do you think most employees take it at face value that an applicant can do what they say they can do from their C.V and take up references from a previous employer to underpin the applicants competence to do the job (very long sentence, sorry !)

We in this company do not have records of every educational qualifications which an employee says they have obtained and so technically it looks like we would fail on this part of the standard

Thanks

Debbie,

If it is stated in our job description that the Chem lab Supervisor needs to have a University Degree in Chemistry, then we have a copy of his Diploma in our records... this applies to all positions in our company... from CEO to shop floor guys...

Applicants can put on their CV´s that they are Nuclear Engineers, but the only proof is the Diploma... getting references from a previous employer or what´s stated on the CV IMO is not proof of EDUCATION.

[ScottK]

I take it this way:

appropriate records of education are records of education obtained during the employees period of work with the company.
For anything prior to that time a CV/Resume on file in HR is just fine.

I've never had an auditor ask to see a diploma and I would never ask.

[Dean Frederickson]

If an employee says they have a degree or degrees, and other training that is pertinent to their position at your place of employment, you should be able to show proof of it. I look at it this way when you go through someones resume, you call and check out their references, and ask to see proof of what education, training, etc., if they are then hired why wouldn't you keep copies of this evidence in their file. If an employee earns a degree after their hire date I would place a copy in their file, same as any training, certs, etc.

[Ted Schmitt]

In Reply to Parent Post by Discordian

I've never had an auditor ask to see a diploma and I would never ask.

Our TUV auditors always ask for them... they usually choose 3 - 4 employees during the audit and while in HR, they go through their whole file and check all records... including evidence of Education.

[Jennifer Kirley]

I am hearing more stories pop up about people inflating their resumes. Sometimes they contract a service that fields calls of inquiry and "verifies" their education credentials.

And so the HR department is tasked with doing whatever research the organization is willing to do, hopefully according to the urgency of need and not being just a bureaucratic exersize.

The question of what an organization expects an auditor to ask for should be secondary to fulfilling their identified needs.

[ScottK]

In Reply to Parent Post by tedschmitt

Our TUV auditors always ask for them... they usually choose 3 - 4 employees during the audit and while in HR, they go through their whole file and check all records... including evidence of Education.

I'm not saying you don't need evidence of education.

I'm saying that a CV is enough evidence of education obtained prior to employment with the company.

If it's a company policy, on the other hand, you better have it to do what you say.
I'd never make it a policy and I've been fine with DNV, Beaureau Veritas, and our PED notified body.

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by debbie135

Hi everyone

Standard says that the organization shall maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience

If a requirement for a job is that an applicant has a degree in chemistry is it a necessity to get a copy of the document or do you think most employees take it at face value that an applicant can do what they say they can do from their C.V and take up references from a previous employer

From an HR perspective, not verifying a cv/resume claim is (IMHO) very dangerous. Depending on the country you live in, the cv/resume can be significantly 'embellished' and what's really scary is that there's little done by most companies to verify what's being claimed as education, training etc. In all the jobs I've had in nearly 40 years (I started at 15), only 1 company (in Britain) ever verified that I possessed what I claimed (even that I was married!)

Yes, it takes time to do this, but the lack of due care can be significant in, for example, the effectiveness of the QMS. One of my clients has recruited Quality Managers recently. One QM wanted to completely revise all the documentation, had no inter-personal abilities to liaise with customer, berated personnel in front of others - but had a degree in leadership, apparently!

What does all this cost?

Just a thought.