Process based Internal Audits, instead of auditing to the elements of the standard

[5litre]

At our last Surveillance audit, one of the OFI's was to do Process based Internal Audits, instead of auditing to the elements of the standard.

We had identified the processes already, so if we were to follow the "tracing method", i.e.; if Purchasing was a process, then one could follow an order for steel both backwards and forwards thru the system.

Would we not cover several processes in this case, and have accomplished the auditing of those also? For instance, one would cover Order Entry, Purchasing, Receiving Inspection, Production, Final Audit, etc?

Thanks

[Stijloor]

In Reply to Parent Post by 5litre

At our last Surveillance audit, one of the OFI's was to do Process based Internal Audits, instead of auditing to the elements of the standard.

We had identified the processes already, so if we were to follow the "tracing method", i.e.; if Purchasing was a process, then one could follow an order for steel both backwards and forwards thru the system.

Would we not cover several processes in this case, and have accomplished the auditing of those also? For instance, one would cover Order Entry, Purchasing, Receiving Inspection, Production, Final Audit, etc?

Thanks

Hello 5litre,

Welcome to the Cove!

There are many great threads and posts about (internal) Process Audits.
Interesting, and oh yes....also emotional and very heated at times....

But to give you some idea; take your example of purchasing.
You could begin by simply asking: "What is required of this process?" What are the objectives of the Purchasing Process? We can call this Input.
Next you could ask: "Did this indeed happen?" Did the Purchasing Process deliver the expected results? We call this Output. If the output meets the input requirements, you could say that this is an effective process. If not, you investigate (audit) the elements that make up this process. You could look at people, information, materials, equipment, environment, etc., that impact the process.

Auditing is a process of great discovery to find out where the strengths and opportunities for improvement in the process exist. I don't want to repeat what's already been discussed in the Cove.....but you'll get the idea.

Seek here at the Cove, and you will find.

Wishing you the best.

Stijloor.

[Helmut Jilling]

In Reply to Parent Post by Stijloor

Hello 5litre,

Welcome to the Cove!

There are many great threads and posts about (internal) Process Audits.
Interesting, and oh yes....also emotional and very heated at times....

But to give you some idea; take your example of purchasing.
You could begin by simply asking: "What is required of this process?" What are the objectives of the Purchasing Process? We can call this Input.
Next you could ask: "Did this indeed happen?" Did the Purchasing Process deliver the expected results? We call this Output. If the output meets the input requirements, you could say that this is an effective process. If not, you investigate (audit) the elements that make up this process. You could look at people, information, materials, equipment, environment, etc., that impact the process.

Auditing is a process of great discovery to find out where the strengths and opportunities for improvement in the process exist. I don't want to repeat what's already been discussed in the Cove.....but you'll get the idea.

Seek here at the Cove, and you will find.

Wishing you the best.

Stijloor.

I suggest one should begin by reviewing the metrics, the criteria, the inputs and outputs, as preparation. This shows the auditor how effectively the process is performing, and gives some starting audit trails.

Then audit the sequence of the process itself. Flow charts, procedures, work instructions, turtles...whatever you have.

Finally, don't forget to audit the linkages to relevant linked supporting processes. This is where a lot of the efficiencies are lost.

Short, sweet, simple 3 point approach to process auditing.

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by Stijloor

You could begin by simply asking: "What is required of this process?" What are the objectives of the Purchasing Process? We can call this Input.
Next you could ask: "Did this indeed happen?" Did the Purchasing Process deliver the expected results? We call this Output. If the output meets the input requirements, you could say that this is an effective process. If not, you investigate (audit) the elements that make up this process. You could look at people, information, materials, equipment, environment, etc., that impact the process.

One must be careful not to confuse the difference between what the inputs and outputs are and other requirements for the process, including controls. Certainly, the objectives for the process must be taken into consideration, but they're not inputs. Indeed, they are necessary for the process to be measured and monitored, but inputs, they aren't.

It's just like a vehicle used to complete a journey. You put fuel in it, and you measure acceleration/speed/time or distance covered on that fuel, to meet the objective of getting somewhere as fast or frugally as possible. The output is, of course the work done by the engine, plus noise, exhaust, heat etc (which should add up to the input...)

In your example, the input to purchasing is a demand/requisition for something to be bought, the output is a PO which describes that demand in sufficient detail for a supply to comply. An objective for the process might be the time taken to 'convert' the requisition into an authorized PO placed with a supplier.

As Helmut stated, the internal auditor should have studied these and any process/process control documentation which describes the assignment of their audit. After detailed planning, the auditor must then ask very focused questions of management and have them demonstrate the process is a) being done per the description and b) meeting the objectives set. If it's not performing, what are they doing about it?

Going into an audit without any planning/knowledge of the process and asking vaugue questions will be a voyage of discovery, but that's not what an internal audit is for.......

[Libnani]

but how can audit traceability in this case ?

if we audit the sales process for example and we take the example of a order of steel of a new supplier then we should check Order Entry (in Purchasing process ), Receiving Inspection , test during production (in the production process ) , qualification of the new material (technical process )
then the introduction of this supplier in the list of qualified suppliers (prurchasing process) .

In this case we should audit 4 process to verify traceability .

Then the lead auditor sould set during the annnual audits plan an audit (or 2) specific for traceability which checks the interactions between all processes

[Helmut Jilling]

In Reply to Parent Post by Libnani

but how can audit traceability in this case ?

if we audit the sales process for example and we take the example of a order of steel of a new supplier then we should check Order Entry (in Purchasing process ), Receiving Inspection , test during production (in the production process ) , qualification of the new material (technical process )
then the introduction of this supplier in the list of qualified suppliers (prurchasing process) .

In this case we should audit 4 process to verify traceability .

Then the lead auditor sould set during the annnual audits plan an audit (or 2) specific for traceability which checks the interactions between all processes

I would not audit the steel purchase of a new supplier when I am auditing the sales process. The trail would end with the output of sales information going into the purchasing process. Perhaps, I would audit the steel purchase of a new supplier when I am auditing the purchasing process, or perhaps manuafacturing.

[Libnani]

Dear 5litre

Sorry , i wrote "sales" process by mistake in my previous post .
i should put "purchasing" process .

Could you please reformulate your answer accordingly .

Tanks .

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by Libnani

but how can audit traceability in this case ?

if we audit the sales process for example and we take the example of a order of steel of a new supplier then we should check Order Entry (in Purchasing process ), Receiving Inspection , test during production (in the production process ) , qualification of the new material (technical process )
then the introduction of this supplier in the list of qualified suppliers (prurchasing process) .

In this case we should audit 4 process to verify traceability .

Then the lead auditor sould set during the annnual audits plan an audit (or 2) specific for traceability which checks the interactions between all processes

I'm confused by your question. Why do you want to audit traceability? have you been having a problem with being able to trace products back to mill certs from the steel supplier? When you do an audit, you don't have to cover every conceivable part of ISO 9001 in order to comply. Yes, you need to verify that certain things are done, but in the Purchasing process, the only requirement for traceability you could audit, is the PO requirements that you put on the supplier.