Please critique my plant turtle maps....

[Anerol C]

Hello!
I appreciate your help reviewing my turtle maps.
I have created them based on the information that I have gotten from my company processes, I will present them to management for their review and want to know your opinion.

There are several tabs on the spread sheet.
Thanks for your help.

Anerol C

[WEHTTAM]

Anerol

Looks fairly comprehensive to me. Couple of points though. Where is the overall map i.e. interactions and also it might be better to have one process owner per process.

Good Luck...

[AndyN]

Normally, I would not recommend that anyone use turtles, but you asked for feedback:-

Some of your diagrams are not processes. Management & Leadership isn't a process. Neither is Measurement Analysis. Don't force fit requirements into a turtle. The problem you will have is that your management will approve them, because they won't tell you they don't understand them etc. Long term they are not valuable

To get the maximum benefit from a quality management system, you should draw up process maps. Don't give your management a turtle. That's an external auditor tool, but not for documenting your system. You have problems with your system today, I'm guessing. But I also bet you can't point show where it is on a turtle. So how are you going to show improvement?

You've done a lot of work, but before you go any further down the wrong road, you might do better to ask the people who 'run' these processes if they can use your diagrams.....

[Helmut Jilling]

Originally Posted by AndyN

Normally, I would not recommend that anyone use turtles, but you asked for feedback:-

Some of your diagrams are not processes. Management & Leadership isn't a process. Neither is Measurement Analysis. Don't force fit requirements into a turtle. The problem you will have is that your management will approve them, because they won't tell you they don't understand them etc. Long term they are not valuable

To get the maximum benefit from a quality management system, you should draw up process maps. Don't give your management a turtle. That's an external auditor tool, but not for documenting your system. You have problems with your system today, I'm guessing. But I also bet you can't point show where it is on a turtle. So how are you going to show improvement?

You've done a lot of work, but before you go any further down the wrong road, you might do better to ask the people who 'run' these processes if they can use your diagrams.....

I usually agree with Andy, but I would differ on 2 points.

1. Many companies define Management, Top Management, leadership, or something like that, as a Supporting Process. I think it makes a lot of sense, because these activities are where many of the problems occur. Thus, it is a central activity (process) at most companies. The other process succeed or fail based on how effective this one is.

2. Turtles are good, clear, simple diagrams that help a novice manager understand the basics of what his process looks like. It shows the things ISO requires a manager to define about his process. But it is a simple diagram, and specifically does not show the sequence of a process steps (as required by cl 4.1.b). It can show the other requirements in cl 4.1 pretty well. Thus, I encourage clients to make them, for understanding and to facilitate management review and internal audits.

I would agree with Andy, that I would make flowcharts for those processes which really are sequential in nature. But, for non-engineers, it is easier to develop a Turtle first, then advance to the flowchart.

If done correctly, the Turtles, or Flowcharts, laid end to end, should align and show the sequence of the whole organization. Most people do that on a single, high level diagram.

I personally reserve flowcharts for those processes that benefit from the extra detail and complexity.

[AndyN]

Thanks, Helmut. Maybe I should also clarify for our other readers (Hi Coury!) that a review of many of the inputs etc of these turtles are, in fact, simply ISO requirements and not the actual business inputs/outputs.

The OP is missing a great opportunity to focus the management teams and give them a chance to show how they run the business effectively, through the use of a well defined and documented QMS.

A turtle simply doesn't show anything about where problems in a process actually lay. They are, IMHO, the road to ruin. Their use is a palliative and nothing else! And I'm not even getting heated about it yet........

[Coury Ferguson]

Originally Posted by AndyN

And I'm not even getting heated about it yet........

Heated?...Nah.

I would personally use a Process Flow Chart of the processes and their interaction on how the fit within the Organization's Business/Quality Management System.

As for the Turtles...They identify certain processes (Input + Output = Process) and identify their owners.

The choice really is the company's on how they want to show the Processes. If the Turtles work for the company, and everyone understands the interaction, then so be it, in my opinion.

[Anerol C]

I'm including the process and interactions related with turtle maps, the original process names were more related with ISO 9000 Model, but I needed to align the original process model to Corporate Processes so this is how they are better aligned. We are in process to implement ISO 9000. Let me know your opinion?

I decided to create turtle maps, based in my past experience (1year) in another company, the external auditors always used turtle maps for the audit, they reviewed always the metrics stated in the turtles and they pointed the audit on those metrics that were lower.

AndyN;
Could you explain a little bit more about how I can address or show improvement?

Originally Posted by AndyN

"" You have problems with your system today, I'm guessing. But I also bet you can't point show where it is on a turtle. So how are you going to show improvement?"""

By the other hand I originally used ISO 9000 model of process, that model has Management Responsibility and Measurment Analysis and improvement as processes, Am I interpreting wrong the ISO model? My understanding is that those are processes.
I appreciate all your comments and recommendations.
AnerolC

[Stijloor]

Originally Posted by Anerol C

By the other hand I originally used ISO 9000 model of process, that model has Management Responsibility and Measurement Analysis and improvement as processes, Am I interpreting wrong the ISO model? My understanding is that those are processes.
I appreciate all your comments and recommendations.
AnerolC

Hello Anerol,

"Management responsibility" as depicted in the "ISO" model can be viewed as a series of processes that management typically engages in such as business planning, strategizing, holding management reviews, overseeing the operation, etc. Just take a look at your management team and list the main activities they perform. Then take it from there.

Stijloor.