Please critique my plant turtle maps....

[AndyN]

AnerolC:

Yes, I'll be happy to. In most organizations, the processes have problems with them. The process takes too long, there's hold ups, information isn't complete and work doesn't go smoothly. All these issues (and more, like no-value added activities e.g checking twice) can be discovered if you use process maps. You must, however, get the people together to help you map the process to discover these opportunities. Once you have a real 'picture' of what's happening, it will be clear where the process can be improved.

Also, there are many side benefits which will help now and in the future. Ownership, involvement, realization/awareness are all likely to be outcomes of such an approach.

So, you see, one person can draw up a turtle and many people will tell you "that's great" and you will get registered to ISO, but one of the most important benefits for doing 'ISO' will have been lost.

Do you want that to happen?

[BradM]

Well.. I certainly am not Andy (which will become apparent with my answer )

Process is a dynamic activity. If you have ever lost your keys and someone has helped you find it, they had to identify your process. "OK, you left the room and went to the kitchen. Did you go to the kids room? Are you sure?..." and so on. Why do most people do that? Because that process identification works. So many times if you don't identify the processes, you have a hidden factory of sorts.

OK, everyone can rib me; that's fine. Yours were the first turtle diagrams I have seen. I did not know what they were (where did I get my CQE??). So see?? All of us learn everyday. So, I really can't comment on your turtle diagrams. They really look nice, and should probably make up one component of your toolset.

I would submit a good, dynamic process flow chart will help you identify more places where variance can occur, and improvement is possible. Are you sure the actual decisions made are the same as the decisions you think are made? What actually occurs may be different than what management thinks is occurring. Your process map can pick this up. Then, a QMS can be used by management to develop a standardized process they would like to be utilized.

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by BradM

Yours were the first turtle diagrams I have seen. I did not know what they were (where did I get my CQE??). So see?? All of us learn everyday. So, I really can't comment on your turtle diagrams. They really look nice, and should probably make up one component of your toolset.

Brad:

Turtles were 'invented' by Phil Crosby, in the 'good old days' of TQM. In recent years, Plexus Training has resurrected them as a tool to help in retraining disadvantaged QS-9000 (read element based) external auditors to prepare and think 'Process', as required to do a TS audit. IMHO, they didn't realize that the 'silver bullet' for TS implementors is to use the same diagram to 'make it easy' for the auditor (it's a game, right?). So lots of folks have used the turtle. I would point out that the IATF have been 'de-emphasizing' the use of turtles recently............

[Stijloor]

Hello,

To use an assembly analogy.....

A turtle diagram can be viewed as an "assembly drawing" of a process. It shows the components of each individual process
A flow chart shows the dynamics and sequence of the components.
A system diagram (interaction of all processes) shows how all processes interact that make up your system.
A process matrix is what I call the "Bill of Material." It lists all processes that make up the system, process owners, inputs, outputs, objectives, measurements, etc.

Hope this helps a little,

Stijloor.

[Stijloor]

In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

Brad:

Turtles were 'invented' by Phil Crosby, in the 'good old days' of TQM. In recent years, Plexus Training has resurrected them as a tool to help in retraining disadvantaged QS-9000 (read element based) external auditors to prepare and think 'Process', as required to do a TS audit. IMHO, they didn't realize that the 'silver bullet' for TS implementors is to use the same diagram to 'make it easy' for the auditor (it's a game, right?). So lots of folks have used the turtle. I would point out that the IATF have been 'de-emphasizing' the use of turtles recently............

From Crosby to Plexus......

Went to train-the-trainer for the Crosby QES program in 1983.
Saw the revived model when I went for ISO/TS auditor training....

Here they are....side by side...

Stijloor.

[Helmut Jilling]

In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

Thanks, Helmut. Maybe I should also clarify for our other readers (Hi Coury!) that a review of many of the inputs etc of these turtles are, in fact, simply ISO requirements and not the actual business inputs/outputs.

The OP is missing a great opportunity to focus the management teams and give them a chance to show how they run the business effectively, through the use of a well defined and documented QMS.

A turtle simply doesn't show anything about where problems in a process actually lay. They are, IMHO, the road to ruin. Their use is a palliative and nothing else! And I'm not even getting heated about it yet........

Well, I know I won't persuade you on turtles. But, to be honest, Andy, at your level, I agree a turtle does not provide much value. Turtles are simpler diagrams, more suitable to regular, non-technical managers. Regular managers are often much clearer on the process approach and how their piece fits the puzzle after they see a turtle of it. However, Engineers can deal with more sophisticated diagrams.

I say, select the tool appropriate for the audience. I am weary of managers who have concocted a poorly done flowchart of a process that is not sequential in nature. They clearly don't understand it, and did it because the Mgt. Rep told them every process has to be flowcharted. Countless hours have been wasted on these. Yet, when we scribble a basic Turtle, their eyes light up.

Let the tool be appropriate for the audience and the need. PS: We agree the turtles are not enough by themselves.

[Anerol C]

Thanks for all your comments,
I got what you mean.

Any way, please take a look at the turtles and let me know your feedback.

Regards,
AC

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by Anerol C

Thanks for all your comments,
I got what you mean.

Any way, please take a look at the turtles and let me know your feedback.

Regards,
AC

What else are you looking for?