IMO our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by jwperry

I have to agree with this. I work for a small company (less than 50 people) seeking ISO 9001 certification. This seems to be a self perpetuating system. When we were smaller (less than 10) we were able to handle a similar sales volume (only $500k less) with a quality objective in mind and got the job done. We didn't need written procedures to do our job right and excel, we just got it done. Confident, competent people will always be more valuable than written procedures. As our company has expanded from our small group of motivated workers to a larger manufacturing team we've had to dilute our talent pool; hence the need for procedures. Those of us that have been around since we started the company don't use the procedures and can operate every machine in the workshop. I haven't touched some of our calibration rigs in years, but have every bit of confidence that I can still go and produce a quality product with them without looking at the procedures.

I don't see the need for small businesses to be enslaved by ISO standards when they produce quality work.

I do see the need for medium to large size businesses to document their operations, because this will track the errors and non-conformity easier than being able to recognize someones hand writing.

When I was in the Marines I saw a guy blow his hands off up with a claymore mine...what does it say on the front of the claymore? FACE TOWARDS ENEMY. But it didn't tell him not to hold it while doing so; written procedures can only take you so far.

Welcome, JWPerry to the Cove! Interesting comments, so far. I'm no sure how much time you've spent around the Cove, before posting, but I'm sure that you'll trigger many responses to your comments like 'enslaved by ISO' and your story about the mine markings.......

One point you make is interesting to me, is the idea that a small group can get business done 'intuitively' and a bigger one can't, without the need for writing stuff down. If you have grown in head count but not substantially in sales volume then I'd be worried and it isn't about ISO!

You may wish to take a long hard look at your hiring process amongst other things! Indeed, I'm thinking that ISO will actually help you to diagnose why you've got such a significant problem of ineffectiveness here........You might say that ISO could release you from this situation - certainly, if it doesn't you've not done it correctly!

[jwperry]

In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

Welcome, JWPerry to the Cove! Interesting comments, so far. I'm no sure how much time you've spent around the Cove, before posting, but I'm sure that you'll trigger many responses to your comments like 'enslaved by ISO' and your story about the mine markings.......

One point you make is interesting to me, is the idea that a small group can get business done 'intuitively' and a bigger one can't, without the need for writing stuff down. If you have grown in head count but not substantially in sales volume then I'd be worried and it isn't about ISO!

You may wish to take a long hard look at your hiring process amongst other things! Indeed, I'm thinking that ISO will actually help you to diagnose why you've got such a significant problem of ineffectiveness here........You might say that ISO could release you from this situation - certainly, if it doesn't you've not done it correctly!

I've only been around the Cove about a week, as my company is just now starting the ISO implementation, with a target certification date sometime late next year, and this forum has been very informative in helping me understand a lot of what is going to happen. Personally, I see it as something that is going to paperwork me to death. When it is all said and done than maybe it will be better.

As for our increase in personnel and lack of increased revenue it has gone mostly to overhead positions; receptionists, IT guys, logistics, shipping receiving, and a para-legal. In any of the small businesses that I have worked for/started you have to wear many hats to get all tasks accomplished. As we've decided to expand we are wearing fewer hats, but the few that we keep are just greater in responsibility. There is no way that I would have been able to document my responsibilities before and keep up with the workload.

[ValleyGirl]

In Reply to Parent Post by jwperry

Personally, I see it as something that is going to paperwork me to death.

I couldn't agree with you more. And I love it when you hear "You only need 6 procedures" But when the auditor is visiting and asks about how you do something and you tell them they say "Does it say that in your procedure?"
Then you go back and add it to the ever increasing amout of Procedures. The next auditor comes and say's "You have too many procedures"

[AndyN]

In Reply to Parent Post by ValleyGirl

I couldn't agree with you more. And I love it when you hear "You only need 6 procedures" But when the auditor is visiting and asks about how you do something and you tell them they say "Does it say that in your procedure?"
Then you go back and add it to the ever increasing amout of Procedures. The next auditor comes and say's "You have too many procedures"

It will only paperwork you to death if you let it! If you recognize that, good! Don't do it!

And to do things 'because an auditor' makes those kind of comments is an issue I'd suggest you stop bending to! I completely fail to understand why you'd do anything because a supplier tells you to - a customer, sure I understand a request from them - but a CB? I work for one and I'd personally be very concerned (as would all my management team) to hear that our clients were creating non-value added documentation on the whim or the throw away comment of an auditor!

Do you fear a finding if you ignore them? Do you get written up if you ask them not to share such statements? I hope not!

[ValleyGirl]

In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

Do you fear a finding if you ignore them? Do you get written up if you ask them not to share such statements? I hope not!

The process of becoming AS9100 certified was a terrible experience. I started working here on the second day of the audit. We were not even closely prepared and the auditor was a jerk. Instead of changing the audit to a pre audit the auditor proceeded to rip the company apart. I had very little knowledge of what was going on. I have learned a lot and am not afraid to challenge an auditor if I feel what he is requesting something that isn't necessary.

[Coury Ferguson]

In Reply to Parent Post by ValleyGirl

The process of becoming AS9100 certified was a terrible experience. I started working here on the second day of the audit. We were not even closely prepared and the auditor was a jerk. Instead of changing the audit to a pre audit the auditor proceeded to rip the company apart. I had very little knowledge of what was going on. I have learned a lot and am not afraid to challenge an auditor if I feel what he is requesting something that isn't necessary.

Good for you ValleyGirl. Hold your ground.

[Helmut Jilling]

In Reply to Parent Post by ValleyGirl

I couldn't agree with you more. And I love it when you hear "You only need 6 procedures" But when the auditor is visiting and asks about how you do something and you tell them they say "Does it say that in your procedure?"
Then you go back and add it to the ever increasing amout of Procedures. The next auditor comes and say's "You have too many procedures"

The standard never said you only need 6 procedures. It said you need whatever procedures are needed to ensure your processes produce the outcomes and results you want, and the standard just gave you the first 6 on that list. (Cl 4.2.1.c and d - don't forget "d").

But, I do agree with your general sentiment that the documents you make should be beneficial to your organization, not jsut made for the standard. An auditor may make comments and suggestions, but it should be your system.

Also, don't judge the standard by your certification experience. It sounds like you had a poorly prepared system, and a poorly qualified auditor.

[JaneB]

In Reply to Parent Post by jwperry

Confident, competent people will always be more valuable than written procedures.

It's not one vs the other. It's a quality system, remember? One of the characteristics of systems is that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. You need both competent people and some documentation.