The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Medical Devices, Medical Information Technology, Medical Software and Health Informatics > Medical Device Related Regulations > US Medical Device Regulations > US Medical Devices (21 CFR part 820)
Forum Username


Elsmar Cove Forum Sidebar
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Sponsor Links







Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access
Sponsored Links
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's
International Quality Services

Atul's
Symphony Technologies

Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting

Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th February 2009, 09:24 AM
jscholen jscholen is offline
Email Address Invalid or Rejected by Recipient System

 
Registration Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlanta
 
Posts: 93
Thanks Given to Others: 19
Thanked 35 Times in 25 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 170
jscholen is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.jscholen is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Please Help! Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

Part of our Medical Device includes an electronic unit with multiple custom circuit boards.

Here's my problem: I believe that each board should have an incoming inspection criteria for functional requirement, however, our R/D Operations group says that it is a part of a closed looped system and will be tested as a whole system, so in essence our contract manufacturer just stuffs the board and we test it within a system not as an individual component.

I don't have an electronics background, but I would think that each board would have a functional output requirement that would need to be met prior to introducing into production?!?!

Does anyone have an arguement for or against their justification?

Thanks!

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 13th February 2009, 11:02 AM
Ajit Basrur's Avatar
Ajit Basrur Ajit Basrur is online now
Forum Administrator

 
Registration Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 49
 
Posts: 5,123
Thanks Given to Others: 1,471
Thanked 2,214 Times in 1,427 Posts
Karma Power: 400
Karma: 13713
Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Ajit Basrur is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by jscholen View Post

Part of our Medical Device includes an electronic unit with multiple custom circuit boards.

Here's my problem: I believe that each board should have an incoming inspection criteria for functional requirement, however, our R/D Operations group says that it is a part of a closed looped system and will be tested as a whole system, so in essence our contract manufacturer just stuffs the board and we test it within a system not as an individual component.

I don't have an electronics background, but I would think that each board would have a functional output requirement that would need to be met prior to introducing into production?!?!

Does anyone have an arguement for or against their justification?

Thanks!
Sorry, I am not an expert in this area but can give a lead - GUIDE TO INSPECTIONS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC COMPATIBILITY ASPECTS OF MEDICAL DEVICE QUALITY SYSTEMS
__________________
Well done is better than well said - Benjamin Franklin
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 13th February 2009, 11:43 AM
Doug's Avatar
Doug Doug is offline
Life Balance

 
Registration Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Kensington, Pa.
 
Posts: 77
Thanks Given to Others: 255
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
Karma Power: 30
Karma: 160
Doug is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.Doug is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

In one of my previous professions, I managed quality inspection of printed circuit boards. That was many years ago. However, I know there are inspection criteria (board thickness, plating thickness, circuit continuity, component layout, hole sizes and I'm sure many more). Good luck in your search.
  #4  
Old 13th February 2009, 01:21 PM
Bev D's Avatar
Bev D Bev D is offline
Heretical Statistician

 
Registration Date: Jan 2003
Location: New England
 
Posts: 2,533
Thanks Given to Others: 993
Thanked 1,664 Times in 1,016 Posts
Karma Power: 320
Karma: 12791
Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Bev D is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

Functional testing is capital intensive and requires soem heavy software development. If functional testing is to be done it shoudl be done at the board manufacturer. The difficulty with this is that often the functional failures are not due to board workmanship standards but more frequently due to component supplier quality and design marginalities so many board manufacturers dont' want to be - nor should they be - put in this place if they have no input to the design of the board.

For similar reasons I don't believe in IQA functional testing either. Unfortunately, teh response from your R&D guys as you related it leads me to fear that they don't fully understand the functional reliability of the board in relation to the system. This makes IQA functional testing almost totally useless. The focus would best be placed on understanding (any) failures to integrate into the system first. then develop true specification requiremetns for the board function, then hold the appropriate functional organization responsible for meeting those requriements.
Thank You to Bev D for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #5  
Old 13th February 2009, 01:26 PM
Jennifer Kirley's Avatar
Jennifer Kirley Jennifer Kirley is offline
Forum Moderator

 
Registration Date: Jan 2004
Location: Maine, USA
 
Posts: 5,206
Thanks Given to Others: 2,982
Thanked 2,835 Times in 1,626 Posts
Karma Power: 612
Karma: 27173
Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jennifer Kirley is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

The argument is usually one of a business case. Here are the general questions that drive the answer in a business case like this one:

Have the incoming PCBs been reliably conforming to requirements - do they always perform well when installed?

If yes, then supplier control may be all that is needed. If not, then:

What is wrong? (Pareto)
What kind of inspection is needed - do you need the gamut of IPC-A-600?
What is needed to correct the resulting problem assembly? Materials, time
What happens with the delays involved with replacing components that are bad?
Is the cost of all this repair work more, or less than the cost of receipt inspecting the PCBs?
What would a good, robust supplier control program cost so the above activities could be avoided?
__________________
"If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." Abraham Maslow
Thanks to Jennifer Kirley for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #6  
Old 13th February 2009, 01:26 PM
Bob the QE Bob the QE is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wisconsin
 
Posts: 172
Thanks Given to Others: 49
Thanked 34 Times in 24 Posts
Karma Power: 39
Karma: 268
Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

I worked in a CB assembly shop in which we had a closed loop system. The easiest way to try and explain it is in sections so I will try:
Incoming PCB's ( 12-16 layers .006 -008 lines)- we used only approved suppliers who were evaluated for process controls to fit a closed loop system. This left many small shops out because we needed tight process controls such as printing, etching, layup and especially testing. Once the boards were built they were 100% electricaly tested for point to point contact. Once they entered our process they were again tested and assigned a serial number with a bar code. Process documents from the supplier were reviewed prior to accepting the lot.
Boards were put into the production process and went through a thru hole assembly, manual inspection and then wave soldered, cleaned, visual inspection manually, and tested for the limited type of performances consistant to the components assembled on it. Each failure was analyzed as to why. There were several classifications of failures and each had its own esculation plan. The next process was surface mount assembly and hot gas soldering. it then went through a optical inspection station and on to testing then to burn-in and then from there to final test. Again each failure was analyzed by a process engineer and failures were catagorized and each one had their own esculation/quality level awareness plan.
Our yields were typically around 92-94% for raw PCB's, 80-85% thru hole 90-93% surface mount and 97% or so for final test and 98-98.5% after burn in.
When I left the org. they were gearing up to implement 6 sigma designing. They were then sold and moved off shore....go figure.
  #7  
Old 13th February 2009, 01:48 PM
Jim Shelor Jim Shelor is offline
$ Contributor

 
Registration Date: Apr 2007
 
Posts: 68
Thanks Given to Others: 15
Thanked 31 Times in 22 Posts
Karma Power: 31
Karma: 160
Jim Shelor is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.Jim Shelor is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

Many good points have been made here. I am an elcetrical engineer and I agree with the R/D Operations group. A test with the entire system is good and it is cost effective. As long as the closed loop system is tested thoroughly, (i.e., all functions) if there is a failure in your component you will most likely find it during the system test. There is a low probability that a failure you would find in a component test will not show up in a thorough system test. You would likely spend a lot of money doing unnecessary testing.

Sincere regards,

Jim Shelor
Thanks to Jim Shelor for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #8  
Old 13th February 2009, 02:03 PM
Bob the QE Bob the QE is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wisconsin
 
Posts: 172
Thanks Given to Others: 49
Thanked 34 Times in 24 Posts
Karma Power: 39
Karma: 268
Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.Bob the QE is appreciated, and has over 200 Karma points.
Re: Circuit Board Incoming Inpection Criteria

I too agree with the R/D guys. Electronic componet quality CAN BE a solid base to build your testing stratagies around. CB manufacturing has also seen a remarkable amount of process improvements. Here is where I may differ a little, these two components are only as good as the manufacturer, the real manufacturer not the one on the label. You must have a strong supplier evaluation team that can help control component quality on a global level. There is (and I know from first hand experience) quite a bit of repackaging, bootlegging and right out fraud going on in these industries outside the US. Countries need not be named but I have been involved in such evaluations and determinations. Once a great closed loop process is infected with lower quality products, the process indicators can start a chain of misleading corrective actions and very costly delayes. I am realy glad I left that industry considering todays manufacturing climate.

Good luck
Thanks to Bob the QE for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Medical Devices, Medical Information Technology, Medical Software and Health Informatics > Medical Device Related Regulations > US Medical Device Regulations > US Medical Devices (21 CFR part 820)

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Workmanship on PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Assembly quality1 Manufacturing and Related Processes 14 23rd February 2012 03:17 PM
Hardware Design Standards - Printed Circuit Board Assembly michellemmm EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 2 7th July 2011 08:43 AM
Revision Control of PCBs (Printed Circuit Board) and Printed Circuit Board Assemblies Bunny Manufacturing and Related Processes 3 11th November 2010 05:57 PM
Frustrated with Printed Circuit Board Assembly Suppliers JkelleyCDS Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 11 12th June 2009 06:58 PM
Curing Circuit Board Soldermask and Legend Simultaneously Johnny Bollocks Quality Management Related Issues 4 29th October 2008 12:27 PM



The time now is 09:51 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272