Registrar Quotes - Quality of Responses Received - Discussion

I am interested in hearing from folks who have solicited quotes from registrars and the quality of responses that they received.

In particular, I am interested in responses that have one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Quotes with confusing, ambiguous, or missing terms
2. Contractual reference to policies, procedures or other documents not provided with proposal.
3. Failure to match specifications (response to different terms, e.g. annual surveillances versus semi-monthly)
4. Significant spelling and grammatical errors or mistakes due to lack of attention, including;
a. Wrong company name
b. Wrong proposal submitted (belonging to another company)
c. Misspellings of words such as "registrar."
5. Absence of indicating days on site (for estimated traveling costs)
6. Wrong calculations of cost, including adding errors
7. Redundant, duplicate and/or conflicting responses from different offices of the same registrar
8. No response at all
9. Onerous terms (e.g. $100 charge for each travel receipt to support a claim for travel reimbursement)
10. Unlimited charges (e.g. $150 per hour travel charge)
11. Proposals not signed by a representative of the registrar
12. Unusual closeness of numbers presented by the other "competing" registrars.

What other "defects" have you encountered?

I have encountered all of these conditions over the past few years soliciting quotes for my clients. I usually canvas five or six top tier registrars and without disappointment most of the registrars respond with one or more of the above defects.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Marc]

As an aside, have you by chance looked at the 'Registrars' comparison sheets in the pdf_files directory?

Look for:

Registrar_Interviewing.pdf
It will tell you what to look for, what to ask, and - of course - there are spreadsheets you can use to 'rate' registrars. I have seen every combination of what you state in your post. It's a company by company thing. I can't imagine charging for travel time, for example, but some registrars do. Some registrars charge full travel expenses, others have a 'cap' where (for example) they will charge no more than US$100 a day for food and hotel.

Registrars are popping up like rabbits. It's only a US$20K investment. Some are good, some are bad.

One thing I have noticed using the comparison sheets is that local registrars usually charge a bit more per auditor hour which often off-sets predicted travel savings of out-of-town registrars.

Yup - They're all different!

> I have encountered all of these conditions over the past
> few years soliciting quotes for my clients. I usually
> canvas five or six top tier registrars and without
> disappointment most of the registrars respond with one or
> more of the above defects.

Not unusual. Not at all.

And I typically require my clients to do the choosing - I only give some suggestions. I won't solicit a quote for them. I don't want a conflict of interest and I believe they should interview at least 3 registrars visit my client's facility to give their sales pitch before they quote. That way the client actually gets to meet a rep of the company. That alone can make or break consideration. If they send you a 'know nothing' sales or account rep - they're probably not a good choice.

[gpainter]

I have came across all you stated. The most confusing usually involve the quote. Misc fees for copying, paper use, stamps, phone calls (yearly fee). auditor travel time, charges for use of marks, termination charge, schedule adjustment charges, charges for extra certificates.

[Marc]

Originally posted by gpainter

I have came across all you stated. The most confusing usually involve the quote. Misc fees for copying, paper use, stamps, phone calls (yearly fee). auditor travel time, charges for use of marks, termination charge, schedule adjustment charges, charges for extra certificates.

I call this "...Nickel and Dimeing..." clients. That's why I made up the comparison spreadsheets and comparison presentation I listed above.

I do thank you for adding a couple (phone calls and stamps for example) that I haven't thought of. I'll have to update the files now...

[JodiB]

Actually, we preferred to send an assessor out to do the sales visit, although he would not be the one to do the contracting he/she could answer the technical questions better than someone like me. Actually, I knew the technical information about approvals, I just didn't know about the actual audit.

But not all inquiries warranted a personal visit. A registrar has to look at the costs (taking an assessor out of the field to do a visit plus travel costs) weighed against the value of the contract and the liklihood of getting the contract. And a successful registrar isn't going to have someone available at the drop of the hat just sitting around not working,so there may not even be someone available to visit a "potential" client. Don't base your choice on whether they can send someone out to see you and if you approve of their choice. They have to use whoever they can sometimes, if at all.

I did many contracts. The costs were not hidden (although I know the registrars who do hide costs and what they were because keeping up with the competitors moves was important). The days onsite were spelled out, as well as any travel time that might be charged.

Marc, it is not unreasonable to charge to get an assessor to your facility. It is a fee-earning day and if he spends one day to get to you and one more day to fly back,that is two days that he is utilized on your behalf. For a local assessor, time may be charged by the hour (usually this is only if a subcontractor is used and that is what his contract with the registrar says). For other assessors, travel time may not be charged (depending on how specialized your industry is - medical device assessors are extremely costly and hard to come by so their time is almost always charged) but travel costs are. My registrar did not charge an add-on like 10% for "handling" the travel costs, jusst actual costs and the administrative time was just something we "ate".

Charges for extra accreditation marks are valid! These are pass-through expenses. The registrar doesn't make money on it. The accreditation bodies are paid for each time the mark is issued. So if you want the mark, you need to pay for it.

We had NO extra fees, beyond the time spent on-site, any travel time (which was extremely flexible), actual travel expenses, and extra accreditation marks beyond the complementary one. Nothing else. Well, there was an "additional certificate" charge beyond the first two that were provided, but we always told the client that there was no copyright on the cert and they could make as many Xerox or Kinko color copies as they wanted. If they insisted that they need another original, the extra charge was just to cover the special cert paper, of course the administrative time to print and package it, and the FedEx charges (because we could never send it anything but FedEx for tracking purposes).

The price would always look high to start with to a "prospect" because the initial comparison was always to the day rate. But total expenses over the 3 year period is what counts.

That is why I've maintained that the "top tier" registrars are not that much more than the others! Look beyond the day rate.

[Marc]

> Marc, it is not unreasonable to charge to get an assessor
> to your facility. It is a fee-earning day and if he spends
> one day to get to you and one more day to fly back,that is
> two days that he is utilized on your behalf. For a local
> assessor, time may be charged by the hour (usually this is
> only if a subcontractor is used and that is what his
> contract with the registrar says). For other assessors,
> travel time may not be charged (depending on how
> specialized your industry is - medical device assessors
> are extremely costly and hard to come by so their time is
> almost always charged) but travel costs are. My registrar
> did not charge an add-on like 10% for "handling" the
> travel costs, jusst actual costs and the administrative
> time was just something we "ate".

I've done this long enough to understand this and in general I agree with what you are saying. If I have a client in Tampa and go for 3 days it is 5 days to me (a day to get there and a day to return). If I'm at a facility for 5 hours, it's usualy 2 or more back in the hotel room 'filling in the details', etc.

My point is there are registrars who do 'hide' costs (as you agree) and/or 'Nickel and Dime' (multiple little charges for this and that) and this is something one should look at. I don't see it as an issue of whether the charges are valid or not - let's assume they all are vaild - give me something I can understand rather than an Enron contract. And if I ask a prospective registrar to send an auditor for an interview prior to 'signing on' and they refuse because the account isn't worth it, they're not gonna help me out anywhere else, either - so they'd be off my list immediately. I do agree that asking for an auditor is of little value as it's a game of switcheroo with auditors these days - used to be you could get registrars to agree to send the same auditor to audit each time but auditors are like truck drivers any more - registrars don't have the control over auditors they once had. Many wil only do contract work.

I will say this is sad. With one major client we had an audit in Singapore and then one somewhere else (I forget now). Same product and processes just different countries. There were so many inconsistencies between the auditors at the different plants that we stopped the process and demanded ONE specific, non-changing (the same person) auditor be assigned as lead auditor at EVERY audit at every facility. We could only audit one facility at a time - which slowed things down - but the inconsistencies between the auditors and their various interpretations of the standard would have cost more. Luckily my client was a very large multi-national whose account was worth kissing to keep.

Yes - company size (read $) counts. Alot. Money talks. When I worked with Motorola, we had a lot of clout with the registrar. We got many things we literally demanded and because the account was worth so much money the registrar did 'what was necessary'.

I know what you said about FedEx and their registration and I've accepted the sampling explaination. However, as Phyllis pointed out early on in the listserve discussion, if you ask a FedEx driver about ISO and get a blank stare and a "I don't know what an ISO is" - that tells me something. Having personally asked this and gotten the answer above, what am I to think?

> That is why I've maintained that the "top tier" registrars
> are not that much more than the others! Look beyond the
> day rate.

I have more often found local registrars are just as expensive, if not moreso, in the long run as 'top tier' registrars - so to me this isn't an issue.

As I said before, one can assess the registrars one is interested in and from there on out - as far as I'm concerned - it becomes a personal matter between the client and the registrar. To me such a thorough assessment of the registrar (and their contract) is nothing less than Contract Review on the part of the company seeking a registrar. If they do it poorly, shame on them. That's why I provide clients with comparison spreadsheets and a presentation on what to ask.

[JodiB]

Marc,

Back to the personal sales visit by an assessor.......If an assessor can be made available to do a sales visit (which is extremely difficult), the vast odds are that they are not the assessor who is going to be doing the audit. They are only there to answer audit type questions that the company may have. They aren't there for a personal interview.

Why is it that people are willing to wait two months for a dentist appt. with a good dentist, or a month for a cabinet contractor, but find it unacceptable that a good registrar is also busy and doesn't have people standing around not working, much less the one out of 15 who are coded for your industry? (because the registrars and the accreditation bodies DO care about industry experience even if you don't).

Trying to free up (read: take off of a confirmed job with an existing client who wants the same assessor each time, thus pi$$ing them off to get a last minute substitute instead so that their regular assessor can jog off to see someone who may or may not actually sign a contract that will be worth perhaps 3 times over a three year period what the loss of fee-earning time plus walk-up airfare, car hire, etc. will cost for the visit...) the EXACT assessor that is proposed is quite difficult.

It is quite possible to arrange a telephone "interview" with the assessor that the registrar would most likely use. I would encourage everyone to consider this option. In this day and age, where people are scattered here there and everywhere and timing a meeting (even within an office) is a major feat, it accomplishes what you want and is more accommodating for both parties.

My comment regarding not being critical of whoever the registrar is able to send you for the sales visit, was just about the sales visit, not the continuity of registration. For the audit and surveillance visits, you should expect the same assessor primarily for each visit. Sometimes things happen and a substitution has to be made, but it is not unreasonable to ask for the same assessor to return each time. It is the first thing that a registrar tries to do - believe me, it makes long-term scheduling a whole lot easier to use the same assessor!

However, after a certain number of visits, a fresh pair of eyes is needed for the benefit of the client and for the benefit of the registrar. We had some clients who insisted that a new assessor be used after awhile, and there were some who resisted when we had to insist on sending out someone new after a period of several years.

I know the women (and the key assessor) who have managed the Motorola account for the last 5 years, so I am aware of the Motorola req's. and you are correct that the sheer volume of the business is what makes it possible. And their willingness to provide travel comforts for the assigned assessor who travels worldwide. I could name other large clients who were equally as willing to shell out the money to make it possible to use the same assessor world-wide.

I wouldn't expect the FedEx driver to know a darn thing about ISO!! Gosh, most people would look at you blankly! Even my boss! What is important is that he was hired based on established criteria, was trained as appropriate, has his authorities and responsibilities adequately communicated, and he knows how to perform his job and how his job impacts the process flow. He should also know how to find out how to do a task if he doesn't know how ( where procedures are kept, or the person to ask), and whatever else I'm missing. But the point is, all he needs to know is that FedEx cares about quality, what FedEx considers to be quality (or where he can find this info out) and how his job contributes. He doesn't have to know about ISO being the backbone of their QMS.

Keep in mind, some FedEx workers are temp staff and an organization usually has different req's for the degree of participation/information in QMS for temp staff.

[Jim Biz]

I have "no proof" of the following but have been told it happens.

What does everyone think about a Registrar that may be charging Full Fair round trip air-flight... to EACH client.

When the schedule being followed is a continous weekly loop from client to client? - sometimes by short hop plane - other times by automobile? Justifying the charge by verbally stating - If you were our only client - that's what it should have cost?