Does "quality planning" include "establishment of quality objectives"?

[Yarik]

On one hand, ISO 9000:2005 explicitly says that setting "quality objectives" is a focus of "quality planning":

3.2.9
quality planning
part of quality management (3.2.8) focused on setting quality objectives(3.2.5) and specifying necessary operational processes (3.4.1) and related resources to fulfil the quality objectives

Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the clause 5.4 Planning includes the subclause 5.4.1 Quality Objectives that expicitly talks about establishing "quality objectives".

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On the other hand, definition of "quality management" in ISO 9000:2005 includes a note that suggests that establishment of "quality objectives" and "quality planning" are separate parts of "quality management":

3.2.8
quality management
coordinated activities to direct and control an organization (3.3.1) with regard to quality (3.1.1)

NOTE Direction and control with regard to quality generally includes establishment of the quality policy (3.2.4) and quality objectives (3.2.5), quality planning (3.2.9), quality control (3.2.10), quality assurance (3.2.11) and quality improvement (3.2.12).

Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the subclause 5.4.2 Quality management system planning implies that quality objectives are supposed to be set before planning of quality management system begins:

5.4.2 Quality management system planning

Top management shall ensure that

a) the planning of the quality management system is carried out in order to meet the requirements given in 4.1, as well as the quality objectives, and

b) the integrity of the quality management system is maintained when changes to the quality management system are planned and implemented.

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Maybe it is just me, but I feel confused. In particular:

(Q1) Is "setting quality objectives" a part of "quality planning"?

(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?

(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?

[Jim Wynne]

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

(Q1) Is "quality planning" a part of "quality planning"?

(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?

(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?

If one were trying to develop a quality system in accord with ISO 9001, how would the answers to these questions affect the effort?

[Yarik]

In Reply to Parent Post by Jim Wynne

If one were trying to develop a quality system in accord with ISO 9001, how would the answers to these questions affect the effort?

I'm just trying to understand the meaning of clause 5.4 in general and subclause 5.4.2.a in particular...

BTW, there was a nasty typo in (Q1) and I fixed it...

[howste]

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

On the other hand, definition of "quality management" in ISO 9000:2005 includes a note that suggests that establishment of "quality objectives" and "quality planning" are separate parts of "quality management"

Just because they are each defined as separate terms, doesn't imply that one can't be part of another.

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the subclause 5.4.2 Quality management system planning implies that quality objectives are supposed to be set before planning of quality management system begins

... or that quality planning is a process where some parts (quality objectives) are set before other parts.

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

(Q1) Is "quality planning" a part of "quality planning"?

No. It is quality planning.

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?

IMO 5.4 is about quality planning.

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?

IMO planning of the quality management system is the same as quality planning. Don't forget this one:

In Reply to Parent Post by ISO 9000:2005

3.2.2
management system
system (3.2.1) to establish policy and objectives and to achieve those objectives

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

Maybe it is just me...

Yes, you're definitely over analyzing it.

[howste]

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

BTW, there was a nasty typo in (Q1) and I fixed it...

In Reply to Parent Post by Yarik

(Q1) Is "setting quality objectives" a part of "quality planning"?

Yes, it is.

[Randy]

Amazing...being able to achieve a quality objective without a plan as how to do so.........Saves on time & paper I guess

[brahmaiah - 2010]

'Quality Objectives' should be understood as goals ie measurable objectives(targets for performance)
Quality Planning is the scheme of things you have to do to achieve the objectives set by you.
Here we should avoid confusing ourselves refering to ISO 9000-2005.
ISO9001-2008 doesnot ask you to follow any other standard.Other standards are there for academic reference only.When you are implementing ISO9001-2008 we should focus on only ISO 9001.
V.J.Brahmaiah

[Geoff Withnell]

In Reply to Parent Post by Randy

Amazing...being able to achieve a quality objective without a plan as how to do so.........Saves on time & paper I guess

Or even better yet, having a plan without having objectives for it! How could you fail?!

Geoff Withnell