Have a nice Halloween!
Elsmar Cove Forum Header Graphic The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page
NQA-USA
NQA-USA
Miner's MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) Blog 
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - General Metrology, Measurement Device, Calibration and Test Laboratories > ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories
Forum Username

Search the Elsmar Cove
Search Elsmar
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page  Elsmar Cove Twitter Feed
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:

Howard's
International Quality Services
Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting
Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook
IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Quality Digest Portal
IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology
ASQ - American Society for Quality

Related Topic Tags
5.9, iso 14664, iso 17025 - testing and calibration laboratories, calibration reports and certificates, calibration (general topics)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14th March 2010, 01:14 PM
suildur's Avatar
suildur suildur is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2010
Location: Turkey
Age: 39
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 43
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Karma Power: 26
Karma: 342
suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Please Help! Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

I am working to build an integrated QMS for a calibration lab and an inspection body which are established under the same company.

The proposed accreditation scope of the calibration lab is as below:
1. Heat cells
2. T/Cs
3. Pressure (up to 75 bar)
4. Non-automatic weighing scales (up to 150 kg)

The inspection body's scope is inspection of clean rooms and zones according to ISO 14664-1, -2 and -3.

Anyway, I have constructed a QMS documentation as belows:

1. QM
2. Procedure 1 - Control of documents and Records
3. Procedure 2 - Sales
4. Procedure 3 - Purchase
5. Procedure 4 - Customer Relations
6. Procedure 5 - Corrective and Preventive Action
7. Procedure 6 - Control of Nonconforming Operation
8. Procedure 7 - Management Review
9. Procedure 8 - Internal Audit
10. Procedure 9 - Training
11. Procedure 10 - Quality Assurance
12. Procedure 11 - Clean Room Inspections and Tests
13. Procedure 12 - Calibration
14. Procedure 13 - Control of Data
15. Procedure 14 - Control of Reference Equipment

The system structure is based on ISO 9001 plus 17020's and 17025's additional requirements.

So... My questions to 17020 and 17025 experts are as follows (begining from the most important):

ISO IEC 17025 clause 5.9 Assuring the quality of test and calibration results requires a procedure. The requirement states (in short);

5.9.1 There must be a quality control procedure where data are recorded, and, statistical methods are applied for the review of the results. That monitoring must be planned and reviewed. Monitoring can contain,

a. Building of internal quality control system by using certified reference materials,
b. Joining inter-lab test programmes, conducting proficiency tests etc.
c. Re-conducting of tests or calibrations with the same or different methods,
d. Re-conducting of tests or calibrations on the preserved material,
e. Research on the different specs of the material.

5.9.2 Quality control records/data must be analysed and planned operations are applied to correct the problem or to prevent reporting of nonconforming results when data are out of limits.


Okay, I clearly understand 5.9.1. I will write down the method for proficiency tests (where two of our employess will conduct the same calibration) and joining inter-lab test programmes (where our AB, TURKAK, or any other accredited laboratory plans a test programme we will join, too), however, the problem is about 5.9.2.

I understand there must be analysis if PT/ILC demonstrates a nonconformity. But, I have also seen some statistical methods (t-distribution, f test, z score, q test, chi square test, x cards) in a sample procedure.

So, shall I apply statistical methods on client's calibration results?

I mean,

1. Shall I apply statistical methods on each calibration step of an individual calibration of any client? For example, if we calibrate a T/C and use 10 calibration points, so I have 10 deviation values and an uncertainty value, shall I apply t-distribution on 10 deviation values?

2. And, shall I compare the uncertainty value to similiar T/C calibrations which we have conducted before?

Thanks in advance for answers.

P.S. I have checked the thread Compliance with ISO/ IEC 17025:2005 Clause 5.9 for Calibration Laboratories That doesnot help me, I think.

__________________

I'm not sayin there'd be a capital punishment for stupidity but why don't we take the safety labels off of everythin and let the problem solve itself?

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 16th March 2010, 02:58 AM
suildur's Avatar
suildur suildur is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2010
Location: Turkey
Age: 39
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 43
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Karma Power: 26
Karma: 342
suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Arent there any answers? S.O.S!!!



Well, maybe kidding, but I really need some comments on this. Any comment or information is highly appreciated.

__________________

I'm not sayin there'd be a capital punishment for stupidity but why don't we take the safety labels off of everythin and let the problem solve itself?
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 16th March 2010, 11:14 PM
BradM's Avatar
BradM BradM is offline
Forum Administrator

 
Registration Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arlington,Texas
 
Posts: 5,717
Thanks Given to Others: 1,424
Thanked 2,005 Times in 1,344 Posts
Karma Power: 400
Karma: 18037
BradM is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.BradM is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
BradM is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Well... I'm certainly not an expert here. But I will certainly try.

In general, I interpret that section that you have adequate quality control over the records. This might be 100% inspection, or may involve using SPC and control charts. Basically you have assurance to detect if something is out of specification, and a plan to deal with it when it is discovered.

__________________

If you appreciate The Cove, please consider contributing: http://elsmar.com/subscribe.html
  #4  
Old 17th March 2010, 05:02 AM
suildur's Avatar
suildur suildur is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2010
Location: Turkey
Age: 39
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 43
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Karma Power: 26
Karma: 342
suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by BradM View Post

Well... I'm certainly not an expert here. But I will certainly try.

In general, I interpret that section that you have adequate quality control over the records. This might be 100% inspection, or may involve using SPC and control charts. Basically you have assurance to detect if something is out of specification, and a plan to deal with it when it is discovered.
Yes, maybe not an expert answer, but at least that's an answer.

Thanks for your kind reply...

__________________

I'm not sayin there'd be a capital punishment for stupidity but why don't we take the safety labels off of everythin and let the problem solve itself?
  #5  
Old 17th March 2010, 03:59 PM
Hershal's Avatar
Hershal Hershal is offline
Metrologist-Auditor

 
Registration Date: Mar 2004
Location: So Cal, California, U.S.
Age: 58
 
Posts: 2,384
Thanks Given to Others: 1
Thanked 798 Times in 564 Posts
Karma Power: 303
Karma: 10628
Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Hershal is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Here is a document that may help. It is a no cost download.

http://www.aplac.org/documents/pt/ap...01_issue_5.pdf
  #6  
Old 18th March 2010, 04:18 PM
suildur's Avatar
suildur suildur is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2010
Location: Turkey
Age: 39
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 43
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Karma Power: 26
Karma: 342
suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Hershal View Post

Here is a document that may help. It is a no cost download.

http://www.aplac.org/documents/pt/ap...01_issue_5.pdf
Thanks for the answer. However, that is not what I m looking for. Anyway, I got an answer in another way.

And the answer is there is no need to calculate with t-&f-tests or z-score to assure the quality of calibration results.

__________________

I'm not sayin there'd be a capital punishment for stupidity but why don't we take the safety labels off of everythin and let the problem solve itself?
  #7  
Old 18th March 2010, 08:27 PM
Mgrace Mgrace is offline
Shy Poster (1 to 5 Posts)

 
Registration Date: Mar 2010
 
Posts: 3
Thanks Given to Others: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Karma Power: 19
Karma: 10
Mgrace has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Dear Suildur,

When reporting the uncertainty, t distribution is really needed because the uncertainty will be express like this....>>>> example : The uncertainty is 0.01C with a coverage factor K=2 at 95% confidence level. "K=2 at 95% is from t distribution.

That is my idea and I'm not expert for that.
  #8  
Old 19th March 2010, 05:35 AM
suildur's Avatar
suildur suildur is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2010
Location: Turkey
Age: 39
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 43
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Karma Power: 26
Karma: 342
suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.suildur is appreciated, and has over 300 Karma points.
Re: Assuring the Quality of Test and Calibration Results - ISO IEC 17025 Clause 5.9

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mgrace View Post

Dear Suildur,

When reporting the uncertainty, t distribution is really needed because the uncertainty will be express like this....>>>> example : The uncertainty is 0.01C with a coverage factor K=2 at 95% confidence level. "K=2 at 95% is from t distribution.

That is my idea and I'm not expert for that.
Yes, you are right, but, right for the expanded uncertainty As you probably know, every calibration method has its own method of uncertainty calculation, and, those are determined by internationally recognized reference documents if you are using standard referenced methods. After calculating the uncertainty you expand it by multiplying the uncertainty result with two. But, that's something different than what I was asking.

I asked, if I must apply any statistical method to check whether the distribution of the sample space (calibration step results) is meaningful or not, each time I calibrate something. I got an answer from another lab, that there is no need to apply those statistical methods for the calibration.

Thanks for your kind interest.

__________________

I'm not sayin there'd be a capital punishment for stupidity but why don't we take the safety labels off of everythin and let the problem solve itself?

Last edited by suildur; 19th March 2010 at 08:25 AM.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - General Metrology, Measurement Device, Calibration and Test Laboratories > ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
ISO/IEC 17025 Clause 4.4 - Review of requests, tenders and contracts Voodoo Queen ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 4 19th March 2014 05:27 PM
Calibration Procedures - ISO/IEC 17025, Clause 5.5.9 - Outsourced Calibration Tom from Clayton ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 10 5th October 2010 06:37 AM
Compliance with ISO/ IEC 17025:2005 Clause 5.9 for Calibration Laboratories amanbhai ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 6 2nd March 2010 06:58 PM
ISO/IEC 17025:2005 Clause 4.1.5 and 4.1.6 Hershal ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 5 27th November 2008 10:44 PM
ISO 17025 Clause 5.9 - Calibration results - How to achieve what ISO wants Sofia Cal ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 7 1st December 2005 10:15 AM



The time now is 08:03 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272
NOTE: This forum uses "cookies".