The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page
Miner's MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) Blog   Elsmar.com Forum Home Page
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 19011 - Auditing Quality and Environmental Management Systems > Internal Auditing
Forum Username

Search the Elsmar Cove
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page  Elsmar Cove Twitter Feed
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access

Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:

Howard's
International Quality Services
Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting
Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook
IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Quality Digest Portal
IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology
ASQ - American Society for Quality

Related Topic Tags
faa (federal aviation administration), internal audits, management systems integration, pri - nadcap, iso 9001 - quality management systems, faa part 145 (certified repair station), as9100 - aerospace quality management systems, nadcap (nat'l aerospace & defense contractors accred. pgm)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th April 2010, 06:32 PM
gwells

 
 
Posts: 9
Please Help! Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 Internal Audit

The Quality Manager believes that it is feasible to combine AS9100, ISO 9001, & Performance Review Institute (PRI) (NADCAP) AC 7118 Composites into 1 audit (internal). He is of the opinion that PRI checklists are detailed enough that AS9100 & ISO 9001 can be encompassed into 1 audit. Does this sound even possible? Anybody ever tried this, or is in the process of attempting it? We are certified to AS9100, ISO 9001, & an FAA Repair Facility. This sounds extremely time consuming and not exactly foolproof.
TIA/R: Gary Wells

Last edited by gwells; 8th April 2010 at 06:41 PM.

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 8th April 2010, 08:20 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Posts: 7,838
Lightbulb Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 internal audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by gwells View Post

The Quality Manager believes that it is feasible to combine AS9100, ISO 9001, & Performance Review Institute (PRI) (NADCAP) AC 7118 Composites into 1 audit (internal). He is of the opinion that PRI checklists are detailed enough that AS9100 & ISO 9001 can be encompassed into 1 audit. Does this sound even possible? Anybody ever tried this, or is in the process of attempting it? We are certified to AS9100, ISO 9001, & an FAA Repair Facility. This sounds extremely time consuming and not exactly foolproof.
TIA/R: Gary Wells
I'm thinking your QM doesn't know internal audits aren't against/about 'a standard'...it's not appropriate to be using standards like this as audit criteria for an internal audit, in my experience. Maybe you could shed some light on what he/you have done - for checklists - in the past for internal audits..?
Thank You to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 8th April 2010, 08:48 PM
gwells

 
 
Posts: 9
Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 internal audit

In the past I have developed audit checklists or used pre-existing audit checklists developed by the previous QM. For PRI (Nadcap) we use their audit checklists. For AS9100/ISO 9001 audits I use checklists previously developed by the previous QM.
TIA/R: Gary Wells
  #4  
Old 8th April 2010, 09:07 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Posts: 7,838
Lightbulb Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 internal audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by gwells View Post

In the past I have developed audit checklists or used pre-existing audit checklists developed by the previous QM. For PRI (Nadcap) we use their audit checklists. For AS9100/ISO 9001 audits I use checklists previously developed by the previous QM.
TIA/R: Gary Wells
Gary - thanks for that info. When I've taught/done/coached internal audits, we've always developed checklists specific to the particular audit assignment at that time. It was usually based on the company's defined (documented) process and controls. I can't remember ever using a checklist based on a standard.

Maybe that's where the QM's approach differs. He's probably used to doing large scale, standards based audits, rather than using the system as the criteria.
Thanks to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #5  
Old 9th April 2010, 08:20 AM
Phiobi's Avatar
Phiobi

 
 
Posts: 225
Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 Internal Audit

I think if you intend on performing an internal audit on, say your Heat Treatment PROCESS then yes you can cover ISO9001 / AS9100 and the NADCAP requirement in one go.
In the past I have established an audit on HT process using the check list (NADCAP) and adding in the company specific requirements (which covers AS9100).
My opinion is that when you audit an internal process, that is approved by NADCAP then your audit should / will cover all requirements (just make sure you look at your internal procedures AND the NADCAP check list requirements)
Thanks to Phiobi for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #6  
Old 9th April 2010, 08:26 AM
Tom W's Avatar
Tom W

 
 
Posts: 414
Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 Internal Audit

JMO but my understanding is:

For NADCAP you must use their checklists and you must have each question answered yes through corrective action (if needed) prior to their on site audit.

For TS, AS and ISO you should NOT use standard based checklists for internal audits unless you are doing a compliance audit to the standard. Most systems are written to do two things: comply with the standard but more importantly to document the disciplined approach the company takes to produce the work needed (while meeting the standard requirements and customer requirements).

Internal audits that just audit against the standard will produce a system that meets the standard but quite possibly a system that is not followed or is wrong to the actual processes being used because I have yet to see anyone that produces product according to TS, AS or ISO...because they are not for this purpose. The standards lay out requirements for everything but making the parts.

The output of the process is what is sold - not the way you do purchasing, or management review or other standard requirements. These can help you be more successful but do not produce the products. Thus you have process driven systems and audits and then you have the old desk audit to make sure your system complies with the standard.

If you develop your system to comply with the standard; then cover how to run the processes you should rarely need to audit to the standard. Even through changes to the shop floor processes you should rarely be changing things that will impact the standard requirements.
Thanks to Tom W for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #7  
Old 9th April 2010, 08:51 AM
andygr's Avatar
andygr

 
 
Posts: 434
Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 Internal Audit

You should perfromed a self audit using AC7118 to provide suporting evidance in the off chance that you get a finding durring your PRI audit to try and prevent the issuance of a second finding "ineffictive" self audit.
The other thing is that as part of the NADCAP approval is that you have to have a 3rd party approval of you QA system or have the QA system audit.
There is no reason you could not go thru the AC7118 audit check list first and use this review to cover similar questions covered in the AC7004 checklist. Audit what is left open on the AC7004 checklist and you would have your process and QA system covered fairly well.
Can you do more detail -sure- this would be based on how well you think you system is working. I would look to make sure I did enough job audits to cover the differances in your shop.

I think if you ask anyone who goes thru a Nadcap audit compaired to a AS9100 audit you will find that very few will say that the Nadcap audit is "easyer" than and AS9100 audit.
Thanks to andygr for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #8  
Old 9th April 2010, 09:04 AM
Tom W's Avatar
Tom W

 
 
Posts: 414
Re: Combining AS9100, ISO 9001, & PRI (NADCAP) into 1 Internal Audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by andygr View Post


I think if you ask anyone who goes thru a Nadcap audit compaired to a AS9100 audit you will find that very few will say that the Nadcap audit is "easyer" than and AS9100 audit.


I would strongly agree with this. While the NADCAP audits can be very frustrating they are also better in a weird way because basically they just look at the facts (requirements set by NADCAP, your customers and yourself!) and decide if you meet them. Then the approach to fixing it and documenting the root cause and corrective action is much more intense and thorough.

In fact during the NADCAP audits they really hardly dive into system type things other than requirements for process related things. For example I do not think we even discussed our purchasing procedure during the last two NADCAP audits (for heat treat) but during the TS audit we spent hours on it...
Thanks to Tom W for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 19011 - Auditing Quality and Environmental Management Systems > Internal Auditing

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
"Simplified" AS9100 and ISO 9001 Internal Audit Checklists dsh205 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 - Questions and Discussions 36 19th March 2014 07:43 AM
AS9100 & ISO 9001 Internal Audits (-+) - Auditor Qualifications gutquality AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 26 18th February 2013 03:20 PM
PRI - NADCAP Certification requirement - AS9100 audit first before NADCAP audit? Joy AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 12 8th September 2009 09:07 AM
Is anyone familiar with PRI - Nadcap? gfox.quality AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 20 7th September 2009 03:47 PM
Internal Audit Training Material covering ISO 9001, ISO 14001 & OHSAS 18001 Darrin Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1 17th July 2009 11:27 AM



The time now is 05:53 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272
NOTE: This forum uses "cookies".