The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements
Forum Username

Search the Elsmar Cove
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page  Elsmar Cove Twitter Feed
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access

Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:

Howard's
International Quality Services
Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting
Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook
IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Quality Digest Portal
IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology
ASQ - American Society for Quality

Related Topic Tags
internal audits, pear (process effectiveness assessment report), as9100 - aerospace quality management systems
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #25  
Old 22nd March 2011, 09:55 AM
howste's Avatar
howste howste is offline
Thaumaturge

 
 
Posts: 4,141
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

If (external) auditors had been auditing the requirements of 8.2.3 appropriately, the PEAR would not have been conceived. I don't believe that internal auditors are auditing 8.2.3 any better than external auditors. It's certainly not required for internal auditors to use the PEAR, but we should at least understand its intent and ensure that our audits have an appropriate focus - and audit the requirements of 8.2.3.
Thanks to howste for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

Sponsored Links
  #26  
Old 22nd March 2011, 10:25 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna Sidney Vianna is offline
Post Responsibly

 
 
Posts: 8,008
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Big Jim View Post

Allow me to clarify myself. Isn't the the results of internal audits ONE of the ways that can be used to assess the effectiveness of a QMS?
Jim, a good auditor needs to be able to communicate effectively and ask precise questions. There is a huge difference between saying one of the ways and a component of.

Assessing solely the results of internal audits will NEVER give me a TRUE idea of the effectiveness of a QMS. But I should use the internal audit results as A COMPONENT of my QMS effectiveness assessment exercise.

Furthermore, let's not confuse assessment of process effectiveness and QMS effectiveness. 8.2.3 CLEARLY focus on PROCESS monitoring.

If 8.2.2 were the answer for process effectiveness monitoring, then 8.2.3 would be redundant.
Thank You to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Sponsored Links

  #27  
Old 28th March 2011, 01:20 PM
wooden nickle wooden nickle is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
 
Posts: 45
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Does every process (procedure) associated with Product Realization require a PEAR?
  #28  
Old 28th March 2011, 03:33 PM
howste's Avatar
howste howste is offline
Thaumaturge

 
 
Posts: 4,141
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by wooden nickle View Post

Does every process (procedure) associated with Product Realization require a PEAR?
Every product realization process requires a PEAR, but every procedure does not. Process ≠ Procedure.
  #29  
Old 28th March 2011, 04:32 PM
wooden nickle wooden nickle is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
 
Posts: 45
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Howste, thanks for the reply. Our QMS is procedure based (old school), will I need to convert our procedures to processes?
  #30  
Old 29th March 2011, 12:05 AM
Big Jim Big Jim is offline
Appreciated Information Resource

 
 
Posts: 2,377
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by wooden nickle View Post

Howste, thanks for the reply. Our QMS is procedure based (old school), will I need to convert our procedures to processes?
You need both processes and procedures. They are different. May I suggest you start with the definition of each.

From ISO 9000:2005

process -- set of interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs

procedure -- specified way to carry out an activity or a process

Part of the possible reason for confusing the two is that when you look up process in a dictionary, one of the definitions given matches what ISO has chosen to define as a procedure.

Staying with ISO's definitions, think that processes in a company often fall out along departmental lines. Think of procedures as being more like a work instruction.
Thank You to Big Jim for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #31  
Old 29th March 2011, 12:17 AM
Joy Joy is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
 
Posts: 416
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by wooden nickle View Post

Howste, thanks for the reply. Our QMS is procedure based (old school), will I need to convert our procedures to processes?
The question was asked to Howste and he would not mind if I put my points here.He is a good friend

What you meant by "convert our procedures to process"?Hope you have your processes already if you are in business.To carry out your processes you have your procedures in place,some may be documented.

Just check following for your processes, if available
Sequence and interaction, determined and implemented
Process controls determined and implemented
Resources (including competence and information) determined and being provided
Process monitoring criteria determined and processes are being monitored

Process effectiveness and efficiency measurement criteria are determined and processes are being measured against these crieteria

Are you recording the measurement results to know how your processes are performing ( also to demonstrate to auditor).You need to keep it for your benefit and auditor will just check it and prepare his records.You need this data for analysis to initiate preventive actions (sometimes CA also)

Do you have (contnual) improvement plan for your processes?


If your answers are yes,you can boldly go for audit and I would be honoured to be the auditor
Thank You to Joy for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #32  
Old 29th March 2011, 08:27 AM
wooden nickle wooden nickle is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
 
Posts: 45
Re: AS9100:C PEAR's (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Joy View Post

The question was asked to Howste and he would not mind if I put my points here.He is a good friend

What you meant by "convert our procedures to process"?Hope you have your processes already if you are in business.To carry out your processes you have your procedures in place,some may be documented.

Just check following for your processes, if available
Sequence and interaction, determined and implemented
Process controls determined and implemented
Resources (including competence and information) determined and being provided
Process monitoring criteria determined and processes are being monitored

Process effectiveness and efficiency measurement criteria are determined and processes are being measured against these crieteria

Are you recording the measurement results to know how your processes are performing ( also to demonstrate to auditor).You need to keep it for your benefit and auditor will just check it and prepare his records.You need this data for analysis to initiate preventive actions (sometimes CA also)

Do you have (contnual) improvement plan for your processes?


If your answers are yes,you can boldly go for audit and I would be honoured to be the auditor
Thanks to all this has been a real eye opener. Would it be possible to get an example of a process with an associated procedure for me to use as a guide.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
AS9100C PEAR (Process Effectiveness Assessment Report) for Design and Development dwend AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 6 18th February 2012 04:48 PM
AS9100 Rev C PEARs - Grouping Processes wayne.wilson7 Documentation Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3 21st September 2011 11:10 PM
Training Efficiency Assessment - Evaluate the Effectiveness (Clause 6.2.2 c) Sardokar Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3 9th September 2011 05:34 AM
AS9120A Process Effectiveness Assessment Report Forms Big Slim AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 23 9th August 2011 07:26 PM
Need some information on Training Effectiveness Assessment Form ramaramji1998 Documentation Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3 6th December 2005 05:27 PM



The time now is 02:09 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272
NOTE: This forum uses "cookies".