The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - General Metrology, Measurement Device, Calibration and Test Laboratories > ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories
Forum Username


Elsmar Cove Forum Sidebar
Custom Search
Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
Follow Marc & Elsmar
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed  Marc Smith's Google+ Page  Marc Smith's Linked In Page   Marc Smith's Elsmar Cove YouTube Page  Marc Smith's Facebook Page
Elsmar Cove Groups
Elsmar Cove Google+ Group  Elsmar Cove LinkedIn Group  Elsmar Cove Facebook Group
Sponsor Links







Donate and $ Contributor Forum Access
Sponsored Links
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's
International Quality Services

Atul's
Symphony Technologies

Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting

Bob Doering's
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality


Related Topic Tags
calipers, digital measurement equipment, calibration (general topics)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22nd October 2010, 03:40 PM
tekno9000 tekno9000 is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2008
 
Posts: 69
Thanks Given to Others: 65
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Karma Power: 28
Karma: 45
tekno9000 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Let Me Help You Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

While calibrating one of our digital vernier caliper, I found that the inside measurements were slightly off.

We define accuracy as per manufacturer – 0.001”

However, least tolerance specified on our drawings - 0.005”

What of the following option is the best one?

1) Increase our accuracy level requirement to .0002”
2) Use the vernier for outside measurements only.

Does any one have any other suggestions besides these and help me choose the best alternative.

Thanks.

ISO 9001 certification.

Last edited by tekno9000; 22nd October 2010 at 03:57 PM.

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 22nd October 2010, 04:39 PM
20110131 20110131 is offline
E-Mail Address Appears to be Invalid

 
Registration Date: Aug 2010
Location: About 10% over the hill, and taking in the quiet of a palm shaded beach view
 
Posts: 444
Thanks Given to Others: 86
Thanked 205 Times in 152 Posts
Karma Power: 0
Karma: 1963
20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.20110131 is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

If cost is a priority then replace it.
  1. Buy a new one. $30-150 is not a major sum for piece of mind.
  2. Repair it, (but this costs more than many calipers cost).
  3. Limit usage, by marking, and not using the feature.
  4. Derate the specification to allow for derate item performance.This method will impact you TAR/TUR so maybe it is more headache than good.
  5. Calibrate item, and use with correction information.
I overwhelmingly suggest replacing the item, and then retiring or moving it to a operational process.
Thank You to 20110131 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 22nd October 2010, 05:17 PM
apestate's Avatar
apestate apestate is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Jan 2003
Location: Eugene, Oregon
 
Posts: 515
Thanks Given to Others: 60
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Karma Power: 96
Karma: 1330
apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.apestate is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

No caliper currently being produced is advertised with an accuracy of better than +/- .001"

A four-measurement (OD, ID, depth, step) typical standard caliper jumps up to +/- .002" at 12" overall range. The same accuracy applies to each measurement capability of the instrument.

MSA covers what to do when you have an accuracy or capability that causes an overlap with a tolerance limit. Basically if your measurement is at the limit, you can't make the correct decision of whether to accept or reject the part. At this point you can switch to a higher accuracy instrument to make the correct discrimination.

When I calibrate calipers, I typically find that they are at least .001" inaccurate at some point. In case I'm using a caliper to measure a tolerance with a total of .005", I'm not going to rely on measurements within .001" of either limit.
Thank You to apestate for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #4  
Old 23rd October 2010, 07:12 AM
Kales Veggie's Avatar
Kales Veggie Kales Veggie is offline
People: The Vital Few

 
Registration Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
 
Posts: 786
Thanks Given to Others: 108
Thanked 425 Times in 289 Posts
Karma Power: 112
Karma: 3973
Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Kales Veggie is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by tekno9000 View Post

While calibrating one of our digital vernier caliper, I found that the inside measurements were slightly off.

We define accuracy as per manufacturer – 0.001”

However, least tolerance specified on our drawings - 0.005”

What of the following option is the best one?

1) Increase our accuracy level requirement to .0002”
2) Use the vernier for outside measurements only.

Does any one have any other suggestions besides these and help me choose the best alternative.

Thanks.

ISO 9001 certification.
I would take one step back and review the calibration method used for internal measurements.
__________________
Kees de Wit
Auditor/Consultant
People: The vital few
  #5  
Old 25th October 2010, 10:59 AM
Ron Rompen's Avatar
Ron Rompen Ron Rompen is offline
Appreciated Member

 
Registration Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lucan, Ontario Canada
Age: 57
 
Posts: 343
Thanks Given to Others: 30
Thanked 89 Times in 60 Posts
Karma Power: 72
Karma: 1471
Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Ron Rompen
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

With a tolerance of ± 0.005", your measuring instrument should have an accuracy of 1/10th (i.e. ± 0.0005") which is well beyond the range of a caliper, whether vernier or digital?

Calipers (in a skilled users hands) can be very accurate for small dimensions, but far too often they are misused, abused, and 'persuaded' to give the 'right' measurement by inexperienced users.
__________________
Ron S Rompen
Goju Ryu
Kitchener, Ontario

Do other dogs think that poodles are members of some strange religious cult?
  #6  
Old 26th October 2010, 12:45 PM
tekno9000 tekno9000 is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2008
 
Posts: 69
Thanks Given to Others: 65
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Karma Power: 28
Karma: 45
tekno9000 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

This is a digital vernier caliper.

We define accuracy as per manufacturer – 0.001” - is derived from Mitutoyo calibration certificate.


Thanks to everyone.
  #7  
Old 27th October 2010, 08:06 AM
Ron Rompen's Avatar
Ron Rompen Ron Rompen is offline
Appreciated Member

 
Registration Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lucan, Ontario Canada
Age: 57
 
Posts: 343
Thanks Given to Others: 30
Thanked 89 Times in 60 Posts
Karma Power: 72
Karma: 1471
Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.Ron Rompen is appreciated, and has over 1300 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Ron Rompen
Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

The inherent accuracy of the caliper is one thing, however once you take into account the variation of the operator(s) then the result will be somewhat different.

If you haven't already done so, I would strongly urge that you perform a proper GR&R study on the instrument, to determine whether or not it IS sufficiently accurate (when all factors are considered) to be used for this measurement.

To answer your original question, you several options (increase calibration tolerance, designate for exterior measurement, etc) however the FIRST thing you should be looking at is the potential impact that this error has on manufactured parts and your customer. If the parts are potentially out of spec, then you need to determine what action(s) are required, including possible customer notification. Be sure to document this, as it is an auditable requirement.
__________________
Ron S Rompen
Goju Ryu
Kitchener, Ontario

Do other dogs think that poodles are members of some strange religious cult?
  #8  
Old 27th October 2010, 12:33 PM
tekno9000 tekno9000 is offline
Involved in Discussions

 
Registration Date: Feb 2008
 
Posts: 69
Thanks Given to Others: 65
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Karma Power: 28
Karma: 45
tekno9000 has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Let Me Help You Re: Vernier Caliper Accuracy Issue - Inside measurements were slightly off

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by george1weiss View Post

If cost is a priority then replace it.
  1. Buy a new one. $30-150 is not a major sum for piece of mind.
  2. Repair it, (but this costs more than many calipers cost).
  3. Limit usage, by marking, and not using the feature.
  4. Derate the specification to allow for derate item performance.This method will impact you TAR/TUR so maybe it is more headache than good.
  5. Calibrate item, and use with correction information.
I overwhelmingly suggest replacing the item, and then retiring or moving it to a operational process.

George,

Can you please throw some more light on sr. no. 4.

Thanks.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - General Metrology, Measurement Device, Calibration and Test Laboratories > ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories

Do you find this discussion thread helpful and informational?


Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
How to Calibrate a Vernier Caliper - Seeking Detailed procedure abdallah - 2005 ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 18 23rd September 2012 09:13 PM
When does a project end inside a software product? Life Cycle issue arnaudl IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 5 28th November 2011 09:23 AM
Usage of Calibrated Equipment - Vernier Caliper anil123 Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 10 23rd February 2010 04:33 AM
Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated according to ISO 9001? blue moon ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 50 13th July 2009 07:52 PM
Best Caliper for Shop Use? Digital vs. Dial Caliper vs. Vernier-type Lundberg ISO 17025 and related Metrology Topics - Measurement Devices, Calibration and Test Laboratories 53 29th September 2008 02:39 PM



The time now is 03:04 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


   


Marc Timothy Smith - Elsmar.com
8466 LeSourdsville-West Chester Road, Olde West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929
513 341-6272