Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

[andrev]

To Jim and JaneB

I disagree with you,however although we are somewhat moving away from the original question, we are still with the M/R or D/M/R as in my case.

What you say is not neccessary, is to me very clear when I read the standard requirements.

5.5.1 Responsibility and authority
The lines of responsibility and reporting for all personnel are documented on the company organization chart, which appears in Appendix A of this document. In order to ensure that personnel understand their authorities and responsibilities associated with the quality system, authorities and responsibilities are further documented in specific procedures.

General
All authorities and responsibilities reside with top management and are delegated to functions and/or individual members of staff within their control as appropriate. All personnel who manage, perform and/or verify work are responsible for the quality of products produced by the company. All such personnel are authorized to identify and record problems relating to products, processes, and the quality system as a whole. All staff and personnel have the responsibility to comply with documented procedures and the direction of management. All personnel have the responsibility to assure that processes in which they are working are in a state of control and that the tasks are completed in a responsible manner. All personnel are also responsible for identifying nonconforming product, marking such product as being nonconforming, notifying management, and controlling further processing until the problem has been corrected. To prevent non-conformities, they may also initiate, recommend, or provide solutions through designated channels, such as the Corrective and Preventive Action system.
5.5.2 Management Representative
Irrespective of other duties, the Management Representative (shown on the organizational chart) has the main responsibility and authority for establishing, implementing, and maintaining the quality system and ensuring that it continues to be compliant with the requirements of ISO 9001. The Management Representative is responsible for evaluating the effectiveness of the quality system and reporting on it to executive management and other attendees at scheduled Management Review Meetings, and for making suggestions to improve the system.

If we compare ISO 9001:2000 (old version) and ISO 9001:2008 (new version), clause 5.5.2 is modified with clarity that member of the organization’s own management must be appointed as a management representative. The old version allowed organization to appoint any member of management to manage organization’s quality management system. It did not clearly mention that the management representative must be a member of the organization’s own management; as such there were instances where organizations had appointed outsiders as management representatives. Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

Top management must review the organization’s QMS at planned intervals (as decided by the organization) to ensure:
continuing suitability of the QMS
continuing adequacy of the QMS, and
continuing effectiveness of the QMS

The management review of the QMS must include the following:
assessing opportunities for improvement to the QMS, and
need for changes to the QMS, including the quality policy and quality objectives

The organization must maintain records from management review. (How will you obtain records without these meetings)

The input to management review, carried out by the top management, must include information on the following:
results of audits (external as well as internal)
customer feedback
process performance
product conformity
status of preventive actions
status of corrective actions
follow-up actions from previous management reviews
changes that could affect the QMS, and
recommendations for improvement

Review output
(Please refer to Clause 5.6.3 of ISO 9001:2008)

The output of the management review, carried out by the top management, must include any decisions and actions related to the following:
Improvement of the effectiveness of the QMS
Improvement of the effectiveness of the processes of the organization
Improvement of product related to customer


Management commitment
(Please refer to Clause 5.1 of ISO 9001:2008)

Top management must provide evidence of its commitment to the following:
development of the QMS
implementation of the QMS, and
continually improving the effectiveness of the QMS

Top management must provide such evidence of the above by the following:
communicating the importance of meeting customer and legal requirements to the organization (employees and people working on behalf of the organization)
establishing the quality policy (please refer to clause 5.3 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of quality policy)
ensuring that quality objectives are established (please refer to clause 5.4.1 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of quality objectives)
conducting management reviews (please refer to clause 5.6 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of management review), and
ensuring the availability of resources (please refer to clause 6 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of resource management

[JaneB]

In Reply to Parent Post by andrev

5.5.1 Responsibility and authority
The lines of responsibility and reporting for all personnel are documented on the company organization chart, which appears in Appendix A of this document. In order to ensure that personnel understand their authorities and responsibilities associated with the quality system, authorities and responsibilities are further documented in specific procedures.

General
All authorities and responsibilities reside with top management and are delegated to functions and/or individual members of staff within their control as appropriate. All personnel who manage, perform and/or verify work are responsible for the quality of products produced by the company. All such personnel are authorized to identify and record problems relating to products, processes, and the quality system as a whole. All staff and personnel have the responsibility to comply with documented procedures and the direction of management. All personnel have the responsibility to assure that processes in which they are working are in a state of control and that the tasks are completed in a responsible manner. All personnel are also responsible for identifying nonconforming product, marking such product as being nonconforming, notifying management, and controlling further processing until the problem has been corrected. To prevent non-conformities, they may also initiate, recommend, or provide solutions through designated channels, such as the Corrective and Preventive Action system.
5.5.2 Management Representative
Irrespective of other duties, the Management Representative (shown on the organizational chart) has the main responsibility and authority for establishing, implementing, and maintaining the quality system and ensuring that it continues to be compliant with the requirements of ISO 9001. The Management Representative is responsible for evaluating the effectiveness of the quality system and reporting on it to executive management and other attendees at scheduled Management Review Meetings, and for making suggestions to improve the system.

Alternative viewpoints are always welcome, but I think we're talking about different documents! Please identify where you are getting this stuff from - because it isn't from ISO 9001, which are the specific requirements under discussion, and definitely the one reference I am using.

In Reply to Parent Post by andrev

The old version allowed organization to appoint any member of management to manage organization’s quality management system. It did not clearly mention that the management representative must be a member of the organization’s own management; as such there were instances where organizations had appointed outsiders as management representatives. Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

No, it isn't. The actual wording is ISO 9001 2008 (5.5.2):

Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management...

The phrase you claim is there ''own management' isn't. Yes, I'm aware of the histories and the changes, but I believe the intent was to ensure the MR was at management level.

It's been debated quite a bit here in other threads. But nothing in the Standard prohibits a so-called "external" party (eg, a contracted consultant) being a member of management for a company nor mandates the particular employment status of the person in that role (why should it?). Indeed, I serve this function for a couple of clients. And when I do that job, I do indeed act for my client.

If you also believe the MR is responsible for doing the 'management review', please quote the specific words & clauses you are relying on from ISO 9001 (2008 of course).

[Big Jim]

In Reply to Parent Post by andrev

To Jim and JaneB

I disagree with you,however although we are somewhat moving away from the original question, we are still with the M/R or D/M/R as in my case.

What you say is not neccessary, is to me very clear when I read the standard requirements.

5.5.1 Responsibility and authority
The lines of responsibility and reporting for all personnel are documented on the company organization chart, which appears in Appendix A of this document. In order to ensure that personnel understand their authorities and responsibilities associated with the quality system, authorities and responsibilities are further documented in specific procedures.

General
All authorities and responsibilities reside with top management and are delegated to functions and/or individual members of staff within their control as appropriate. All personnel who manage, perform and/or verify work are responsible for the quality of products produced by the company. All such personnel are authorized to identify and record problems relating to products, processes, and the quality system as a whole. All staff and personnel have the responsibility to comply with documented procedures and the direction of management. All personnel have the responsibility to assure that processes in which they are working are in a state of control and that the tasks are completed in a responsible manner. All personnel are also responsible for identifying nonconforming product, marking such product as being nonconforming, notifying management, and controlling further processing until the problem has been corrected. To prevent non-conformities, they may also initiate, recommend, or provide solutions through designated channels, such as the Corrective and Preventive Action system.
5.5.2 Management Representative
Irrespective of other duties, the Management Representative (shown on the organizational chart) has the main responsibility and authority for establishing, implementing, and maintaining the quality system and ensuring that it continues to be compliant with the requirements of ISO 9001. The Management Representative is responsible for evaluating the effectiveness of the quality system and reporting on it to executive management and other attendees at scheduled Management Review Meetings, and for making suggestions to improve the system.

If we compare ISO 9001:2000 (old version) and ISO 9001:2008 (new version), clause 5.5.2 is modified with clarity that member of the organization’s own management must be appointed as a management representative. The old version allowed organization to appoint any member of management to manage organization’s quality management system. It did not clearly mention that the management representative must be a member of the organization’s own management; as such there were instances where organizations had appointed outsiders as management representatives. Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

Top management must review the organization’s QMS at planned intervals (as decided by the organization) to ensure:
continuing suitability of the QMS
continuing adequacy of the QMS, and
continuing effectiveness of the QMS

The management review of the QMS must include the following:
assessing opportunities for improvement to the QMS, and
need for changes to the QMS, including the quality policy and quality objectives

The organization must maintain records from management review. (How will you obtain records without these meetings)

The input to management review, carried out by the top management, must include information on the following:
results of audits (external as well as internal)
customer feedback
process performance
product conformity
status of preventive actions
status of corrective actions
follow-up actions from previous management reviews
changes that could affect the QMS, and
recommendations for improvement

Review output
(Please refer to Clause 5.6.3 of ISO 9001:2008)

The output of the management review, carried out by the top management, must include any decisions and actions related to the following:
Improvement of the effectiveness of the QMS
Improvement of the effectiveness of the processes of the organization
Improvement of product related to customer


Management commitment
(Please refer to Clause 5.1 of ISO 9001:2008)

Top management must provide evidence of its commitment to the following:
development of the QMS
implementation of the QMS, and
continually improving the effectiveness of the QMS

Top management must provide such evidence of the above by the following:
communicating the importance of meeting customer and legal requirements to the organization (employees and people working on behalf of the organization)
establishing the quality policy (please refer to clause 5.3 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of quality policy)
ensuring that quality objectives are established (please refer to clause 5.4.1 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of quality objectives)
conducting management reviews (please refer to clause 5.6 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of management review), and
ensuring the availability of resources (please refer to clause 6 of ISO 9001:2008 for requirements of resource management

I'm really not sure what you are trying to tell us, but what you quoted above is not the standard. It looks like it may have come from a quality manual or perhaps a procedure manual. In other words, it looks like someones interpretation of how the standard applies to their company.

Below is ISO 9001:2008 elements 5.5.1 and 5.5.2:

5.5.1 Top management shall ensure that responsibilities and authorities are defined and communicated within the organization.

5.5.2 Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority that includes:

a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are established, implemented and maintained,

b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement, and

c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of customer requirements throughout the organization.

[JaneB]

In Reply to Parent Post by Ron tollett

Is it all right to say in Management Review "The Quality Management Representative:
is a member of the management team (see Organizational Chart)? Would this be correct in meeting the standard?

If by 'say' you mean 'write somewhere in our manual' you don't even need to write it. You simply produce the evidence - in this case, the Org Chart. (I'm in favour of fewer words you see).

[Paul Simpson]

Further interesting debate. Here's my take on the requirements of 9001. Now it's not in the standard wording - but we can all read that. This is my attempt to translate from ISO Speak into 'Borisish' - the language I use when talking to real people. I appreciate it may not explain it to everyone and if this doesn't work I generally take another turn with different wording based on the first lot of feedback until, hopefully, there is a common understanding .... or in the case of Randy and Big Jim we agree to disagree.

5.5.2 The gals and guys that run the business pick someone of sufficient authority (who may have another job) from within the business to:

a) make sure that everything required to ensure the organization continues to satisfy customers is done all the time,

b) reports back to the top guys and gals on how well this works and whether anything needs fixing, and

c) pushes the message throughout the business that this system is all about keeping customers satisfied and coming back.

... er, that's it!

[amanbhai]

I am the MR in a big organization. I am thankful to Jim and others for giving us the oppertunity to learn. Thank you

[andrev]

To JaneB and Jim
Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

By the way this is taken from the official ISO.ORG website, explaining ISO 9001:2008

I keep on reading and re-reading the standard requirements, and looking through my own audits, and I cant see where I am missing the point.

[Big Jim]

In Reply to Parent Post by andrev

To JaneB and Jim
Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

By the way this is taken from the official ISO.ORG website, explaining ISO 9001:2008

I keep on reading and re-reading the standard requirements, and looking through my own audits, and I cant see where I am missing the point.

You won't find the actual wording of the standard posted on their web site. They wish you to purchase a copy of the standard. To get the actual wording, you need to get a copy of the actual standard, not something that describes it.