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AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

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aiag (automotive industry action group), aiag manual(s), apqp (advanced product quality planning), apqp manual, capability study (measurement device), gage r&r (repeatability and reproducibility), msa manual, requirements and specifications
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  #1  
Old 13th June 2011, 10:50 AM
djtodd27

 
 
Posts: 23
Please Help! AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

I have been doing PPAP's for this company for about 8 yrs now. Just the other day the Quality Manager contacted me to reject a PPAP because there was no capability study or R&R. My response was there was no cpk or characteristics on teh print. The response was I need to do an R&R on all gages used on the control plan and check a characteristic to make sure our process is cabable but no cpk was given. When looking in our PPAP foruth edition book it states to reference the MSA reference manual (we don't have it). My question is "Is this a true statement and I need to R&R all the gages and capability study this. That is alot of work for 1 person. Another question is there P.O stated a level 2 PPAP what does that really mean? They also do not supply a bulk materials list on what they require.
Todd

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  #2  
Old 13th June 2011, 12:45 PM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Posts: 14,077
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by djtodd27 View Post

I have been doing PPAP's for this company for about 8 yrs now. Just the other day the Quality Manager contacted me to reject a PPAP because there was no capability study or R&R. My response was there was no cpk or characteristics on teh print. The response was I need to do an R&R on all gages used on the control plan and check a characteristic to make sure our process is cabable but no cpk was given. When looking in our PPAP foruth edition book it states to reference the MSA reference manual (we don't have it). My question is "Is this a true statement and I need to R&R all the gages and capability study this. That is alot of work for 1 person. Another question is there P.O stated a level 2 PPAP what does that really mean? They also do not supply a bulk materials list on what they require.
Todd
This is a murky area insofar as PPAP is concerned. First, ISO/TS 16949 says this about MSA:

7.6.1 Measurement system analysis
Statistical studies shall be conducted to analyse the variation present in the results of each type of measuring and test equipment system. This requirement shall apply to measurement systems referenced in the control plan. The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used shall conform to those in customer reference manuals on
measurement systems analysis. Other analytical methods and acceptance criteria may be used if approved by the customer.


The customer is asking you to comply with TS 16949 requirements, not specifically PPAP requirements. If your customer has never been specific about this in purchase orders (including by reference), you need to get the requirements clarified.


The PPAP manual is now and always has been muddy on the issue. It says (on page 6 of the 4th edition):
The organization shall have applicable Measurement System Analysis studies, e.g., gage R&R, bias, linearity, stability, for all new or modified gages, measurement, and test equipment. (See the Measurement Systems Analysis reference manual).
[Emphasis and punctuation errors in the original)

What is generally expected is that a PPAP package will include capability and MSA reports for special characteristics. Some customers expect both even when there are no special characteristics. In those cases the dimension or characteristic to study is usually left to the supplier.

I've never heard of a customer asking for MSA reports for all control plan gages/measurement devices.

Note also that if your customer specified a Level 2 submission, they also should have specified which elements (in addition to the PSW) were to be submitted. The supplier is still responsibile for the elements not submitted unless those elements are explicitly waived by the customer.

If you're expected to do AIAG-compliant PPAP submissions, you had better get the manuals--PPAP, APQP, FMEA, MSA and SPC. You also need to clearly understand your customers' requirements in this regard.
Thank You to Jim Wynne for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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  #3  
Old 13th June 2011, 01:30 PM
djtodd27

 
 
Posts: 23
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
  #4  
Old 13th June 2011, 01:39 PM
bobdoering's Avatar
bobdoering

 
 
Posts: 3,941
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by djtodd27 View Post

The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
Maybe they don't....but maybe they expect MSA and capability, anyway, as a Customer Specific Requirement.
  #5  
Old 13th June 2011, 01:40 PM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Posts: 14,077
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by djtodd27 View Post

The real kicker in my opinion is that the end user is Honda. I thought AIAG was the american standard. Would Honda follow the AIAG? So the MSA is more a TS not an ISO thing correct? We are ISO 9001:2008 certified. Our customer is TS certified. I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
If your customer makes it a specific requirement in the contract that you must chant voodoo incantations over the parts before shipping them, that's what you have to do if you accept the contract. The question is what the customer specifically asked for. If, as you say, they specified a Level 2 submission but didn't specify which elements to submit, that question should have been asked of the customer before proceeding (i.e., before accepting the PO).

Right now, what I would tell the customer is that the requirements weren't clearly communicated, if that's indeed what the problem was. Have the PO that specifies Level 2 in hand, along with a copy of the PPAP manual and show them where it says (on page 17), for Level 2, "Warrant with product samples and limited supporting data submitted to the customer."
Thank You to Jim Wynne for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #6  
Old 13th June 2011, 02:10 PM
howste's Avatar
howste

 
 
Posts: 4,140
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by djtodd27 View Post

I have to meet with them and tell them why I never submitted the studies to them.
Jim is absolutely right. Before you go, make sure you research and identify all contract requirements. If they didn't specify the requirements that they're calling you on the carpet for, then tactfully tell them that their poor communication is the root cause.

Be sure to look for the voodoo incantation in the contract as well.
  #7  
Old 13th June 2011, 02:53 PM
djtodd27

 
 
Posts: 23
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

What is voodoo incantation?
  #8  
Old 13th June 2011, 03:03 PM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Posts: 14,077
Re: AIAG 4th Edition Capability Study and Gage R&R Requirements

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by djtodd27 View Post

What is voodoo incantation?
Wikipedia reference-linkVoodoo + Incantation
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