The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums More Free Files Forum Discussion Thread Post Attachments Listing Cove Discussion Forums Main Page
Miner's MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) Blog
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > National and International Business System Standards > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Elsmar XML RSS Feed
Elsmar Cove Forum RSS Feed

Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Standards Organization - ISO Standards and Information

Atul's
Quality Forum Online

Howard's
International Quality Services

Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum

Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology


Related LinkedIn Groups

ISO 9001 for Small Businesses

ISO 9001:2015 Revision Discussions

Information Security Community

Medical Devices Group

Quality and Regulatory Network

FDA (Food and Drugs)

AS91XX Series - Tips and Advice


Related Topic Tags
as9100 - aerospace quality management systems, flowcharts, work instructions (wi), procedures (general), turtle diagrams
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  Post Number #1  
Old 4th November 2011, 11:30 AM
mallen92705

 
 
Total Posts: 17
Please Help! Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Hello Everybody!

I work for a small AS9100 and ISO 9001 certified company that is soon approaching our first AS9100 Rev. C audit and wanted to get your opinion to see if I am on the right track.

With that being said, here you go...

I have inside knowledge that our Auditor is going to want to see Turtle Diagrams of our processes. I realize that this is not called out directly in the specification, but rather than stand up to him, I believe that these are a useful and important tool. It also gets me "Top Management" support in creating them.

Since I have never created a Turtle Diagram, I have choosen to create four Simple Flow Charts that show how all our documented Operating Procedures and Work Instructions are implemented throughout our organization.

My question to you is do you feel that this would be an acceptable alternative to the Turtle Diagrams that the Auditor is planning on seeing?

Or would I be inherently missing something by using Flow Charts instead of Turtle Diagrams?

I have read in other threads about Turtle Diagrams and the requirement for them by certain auditors during the AS9100 Rev. C and realize that they are not called out directly within the specification.

Thank you in advance!

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #2  
Old 4th November 2011, 11:53 AM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Total Posts: 14,142
Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Hello Everybody!

I work for a small AS9100 and ISO 9001 certified company that is soon approaching our first AS9100 Rev. C audit and wanted to get your opinion to see if I am on the right track.

With that being said, here you go...

I have inside knowledge that our Auditor is going to want to see Turtle Diagrams of our processes. I realize that this is not called out directly in the specification, but rather than stand up to him, I believe that these are a useful and important tool. It also gets me "Top Management" support in creating them.

Since I have never created a Turtle Diagram, I have choosen to create four Simple Flow Charts that show how all our documented Operating Procedures and Work Instructions are implemented throughout our organization.

My question to you is do you feel that this would be an acceptable alternative to the Turtle Diagrams that the Auditor is planning on seeing?

Or would I be inherently missing something by using Flow Charts instead of Turtle Diagrams?

I have read in other threads about Turtle Diagrams and the requirement for them by certain auditors during the AS9100 Rev. C and realize that they are not called out directly within the specification.

Thank you in advance!
All turtle diagrams are flow diagrams, but not all flow diagrams are turtle diagrams. If you want to create turtle diagrams for whatever reasons you might have, you should create turtle diagrams. My personal preference is standard process flowcharts, and I think that the sole reason for the existence of turtle diagrams is auditor appeasement. That's just me, though, and if you think turtles are "a useful and important tool," then that's the way you should go.
Sponsored Links

  Post Number #3  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:00 PM
mallen92705

 
 
Total Posts: 17
Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Thank you for your reply!

Based on your response I am starting to think that the Flow Charts are a better and more thorough alternative to the Turtle Diagrams and should satisfy our auditor.
  Post Number #4  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:05 PM
Bill Pflanz's Avatar
Bill Pflanz

 
 
Total Posts: 710
Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

I have experience with ISO 9000 but not AS9100 but I am not sure the value of either the flow charting or turtle diagrams if you are only doing it to satisfy the auditor. Once you start doing them then you are committed to maintaining both procedures and diagrams which could result in some extra long term work. Are you sure you really want to do it if does not contribute to a better management system?

Bill Pflanz
Thank You to Bill Pflanz for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #5  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:36 PM
Stijloor's Avatar
Stijloor

 
 
Total Posts: 14,974
Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Thank you for your reply!

Based on your response I am starting to think that the Flow Charts are a better and more thorough alternative to the Turtle Diagrams and should satisfy our auditor.
Let me caution you! Your quality system is not about satisfying the auditor! You must do what makes most sense to your organization and your customers.

Too much "auditor pleasing" going on....

Stijloor.
Thank You to Stijloor for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #6  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:45 PM
mallen92705

 
 
Total Posts: 17
Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Agreed!

But...
(1) since I need to continue to be employed
(2) Top Management wants a happy auditor

I need to proceed and was looking for feedback from others to see if Flow Charts were an effective replacement.

Thanks!
  Post Number #7  
Old 4th November 2011, 07:39 PM
rickpaul01's Avatar
rickpaul01

 
 
Total Posts: 152
Hehehe... Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Hi Mike,
Either will work for the audit. So use what works best for you. I started out creating Turtles, not to appease a potential auditor, but to make his job easier. Hes there to help me, so I should help him.
It ended up that the turtles helped me to explain the outputs, and which outputs we should be measuring, to our senior staff.
Good Luck.
  Post Number #8  
Old 5th November 2011, 03:50 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,456
Caution Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Agreed!

But...
(1) since I need to continue to be employed
(2) Top Management wants a happy auditor

I need to proceed and was looking for feedback from others to see if Flow Charts were an effective replacement.

Thanks!
What about your own people? There's too much emphasis on pleasing auditors, when, in fact, they will be pleased if the documents are employed by the people who are supposed to use them! If your employees are 'happy' with the use of documentation to describe the process and information they need to do their jobs, it will be apparent to the auditor and, more importantly, your management (you get to keep your job and sleep at night).

If you do things for auditors and forget the main purpose of the documentation - which is NOT to pass audits or 'keep them of your management 'happy', you will be potentially be out of a job, sooner or later. The reason? Because the documents will not be being followed, the QMS will not have controlled a situation which escaped, costing a packet/affected a customer and YOUR name will be on it. You should not sleep well at night knowing this. How much will your auditor's happiness have cost you? You're also forgetting that one auditor may be happy, doesn't mean they will all be and they will change...

Last edited by AndyN; 5th November 2011 at 08:50 PM.
Thanks to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > National and International Business System Standards > Aerospace and Aviation Standards and Requirements > AS9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Process Flow Chart is a Work Procedure or a Work Guide, or a Work Instruction jm1231 Documentation Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 28 9th March 2012 12:52 AM
Turtle Diagrams - I am looking for examples of Completed Turtle Diagrams Reggie Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 14 15th November 2006 01:47 AM
Turtle Diagrams - Are Turtle Diagrams *Required* or not? KIDDO Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 13 28th September 2006 03:59 PM
ESD Work Instruction or ESD Process Flow Chart - Seeking example Barbara Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 5 29th January 2006 12:38 AM
Turtle Charts - Anyone have a work instruction? WWilliams Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 2 29th September 2005 08:42 AM



The time now is 07:48 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.


 


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies" -- The Elsmar Cove is *Copyright Free*.
A Peachfarm LLC Internet Property