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as9100 - aerospace quality management systems, flowcharts, work instructions (wi), procedures (general), turtle diagrams
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  #1  
Old 4th November 2011, 11:30 AM
mallen92705 mallen92705 is offline
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Please Help! Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Hello Everybody!

I work for a small AS9100 and ISO 9001 certified company that is soon approaching our first AS9100 Rev. C audit and wanted to get your opinion to see if I am on the right track.

With that being said, here you go...

I have inside knowledge that our Auditor is going to want to see Turtle Diagrams of our processes. I realize that this is not called out directly in the specification, but rather than stand up to him, I believe that these are a useful and important tool. It also gets me "Top Management" support in creating them.

Since I have never created a Turtle Diagram, I have choosen to create four Simple Flow Charts that show how all our documented Operating Procedures and Work Instructions are implemented throughout our organization.

My question to you is do you feel that this would be an acceptable alternative to the Turtle Diagrams that the Auditor is planning on seeing?

Or would I be inherently missing something by using Flow Charts instead of Turtle Diagrams?

I have read in other threads about Turtle Diagrams and the requirement for them by certain auditors during the AS9100 Rev. C and realize that they are not called out directly within the specification.

Thank you in advance!

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  #2  
Old 4th November 2011, 11:53 AM
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Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Hello Everybody!

I work for a small AS9100 and ISO 9001 certified company that is soon approaching our first AS9100 Rev. C audit and wanted to get your opinion to see if I am on the right track.

With that being said, here you go...

I have inside knowledge that our Auditor is going to want to see Turtle Diagrams of our processes. I realize that this is not called out directly in the specification, but rather than stand up to him, I believe that these are a useful and important tool. It also gets me "Top Management" support in creating them.

Since I have never created a Turtle Diagram, I have choosen to create four Simple Flow Charts that show how all our documented Operating Procedures and Work Instructions are implemented throughout our organization.

My question to you is do you feel that this would be an acceptable alternative to the Turtle Diagrams that the Auditor is planning on seeing?

Or would I be inherently missing something by using Flow Charts instead of Turtle Diagrams?

I have read in other threads about Turtle Diagrams and the requirement for them by certain auditors during the AS9100 Rev. C and realize that they are not called out directly within the specification.

Thank you in advance!
All turtle diagrams are flow diagrams, but not all flow diagrams are turtle diagrams. If you want to create turtle diagrams for whatever reasons you might have, you should create turtle diagrams. My personal preference is standard process flowcharts, and I think that the sole reason for the existence of turtle diagrams is auditor appeasement. That's just me, though, and if you think turtles are "a useful and important tool," then that's the way you should go.

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  #3  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:00 PM
mallen92705 mallen92705 is offline
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Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Thank you for your reply!

Based on your response I am starting to think that the Flow Charts are a better and more thorough alternative to the Turtle Diagrams and should satisfy our auditor.
  #4  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:05 PM
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Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

I have experience with ISO 9000 but not AS9100 but I am not sure the value of either the flow charting or turtle diagrams if you are only doing it to satisfy the auditor. Once you start doing them then you are committed to maintaining both procedures and diagrams which could result in some extra long term work. Are you sure you really want to do it if does not contribute to a better management system?

Bill Pflanz

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Old 4th November 2011, 12:36 PM
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Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Thank you for your reply!

Based on your response I am starting to think that the Flow Charts are a better and more thorough alternative to the Turtle Diagrams and should satisfy our auditor.
Let me caution you! Your quality system is not about satisfying the auditor! You must do what makes most sense to your organization and your customers.

Too much "auditor pleasing" going on....

Stijloor.
Thank You to Stijloor for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  #6  
Old 4th November 2011, 12:45 PM
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Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Agreed!

But...
(1) since I need to continue to be employed
(2) Top Management wants a happy auditor

I need to proceed and was looking for feedback from others to see if Flow Charts were an effective replacement.

Thanks!
  #7  
Old 4th November 2011, 07:39 PM
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Hehehe... Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Hi Mike,
Either will work for the audit. So use what works best for you. I started out creating Turtles, not to appease a potential auditor, but to make his job easier. Hes there to help me, so I should help him.
It ended up that the turtles helped me to explain the outputs, and which outputs we should be measuring, to our senior staff.
Good Luck.
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Old 5th November 2011, 03:50 PM
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Caution Re: Procedure & Work Instruction Flow Charting vs. Turtle Diagrams

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by mallen92705 View Post

Agreed!

But...
(1) since I need to continue to be employed
(2) Top Management wants a happy auditor

I need to proceed and was looking for feedback from others to see if Flow Charts were an effective replacement.

Thanks!
What about your own people? There's too much emphasis on pleasing auditors, when, in fact, they will be pleased if the documents are employed by the people who are supposed to use them! If your employees are 'happy' with the use of documentation to describe the process and information they need to do their jobs, it will be apparent to the auditor and, more importantly, your management (you get to keep your job and sleep at night).

If you do things for auditors and forget the main purpose of the documentation - which is NOT to pass audits or 'keep them of your management 'happy', you will be potentially be out of a job, sooner or later. The reason? Because the documents will not be being followed, the QMS will not have controlled a situation which escaped, costing a packet/affected a customer and YOUR name will be on it. You should not sleep well at night knowing this. How much will your auditor's happiness have cost you? You're also forgetting that one auditor may be happy, doesn't mean they will all be and they will change...

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Last edited by AndyN; 5th November 2011 at 08:50 PM.
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