IMDS - Clarification needed for Electroplated Parts: Component or Semi-Component?

[qualcom6500]

Hi All,

It is my fist time posting in the cove. Truly a great site!
I hope this is in the right forum category. Please let me know if it is not!!

My dilemma:

I work for a electroplating company in the US providing precious metal plating for the automotive, medical and aerospace industries.

When we receive parts they are come on a reel, un-stamped and un-formed. So we do not know the finish weight/mass of the part. This makes it that more difficult when entering information into the IMDS, where substances are primarily based on a per piece basis ( as far as I understand).

When our customer requires an MSDS ID/version # on the PSW I can provide this to them but should I:

* Create a component that have materials with individual weights?
* Create a semi-component with weights as a percentage?
* Create something entirely different from this?

I provided both of these options to my customer who said that they were unable to "apply" the materials to their parts.

Please if anyone has any words of advise I would truly appreciate it!!

Thanks!

[NumberCruncher]

Hi qualcom6500

As I understand IMDS, the only way that you can "Create something entirely different from this" would be to sell your product as a material.
For example, you sell a specific alloys used for making pistons, engine blocks, etc. But you are not making anything out of it. All you are doing is providing the raw metal ingots that someone else casts into a component or semicomponent. This would have to be registered on IMDS as a material.

A semicomponent is unfinished. So if you are making an engine component, which is then sold 'as is', but your customer needs to machine it further (drill bolt holes, machine to final tolerance etc) then you are making a semicomponent. In this case, you can enter your product on IMDS as a semicomponent since you do not know or have control over the final weight of the finished component which ends up in the car.
For example, If you are casting an engine block and selling 'as cast' you will be making a semicomponent as there is no way that it will be in tolerance for the pistons ect. Your customer must machine away the bores to the correct size, drill holes for all fittings...

If you are making a finished component, it is sold 'ready to use'. No further work is required by the customer beyond fitting it into its final location.
For example, you buy 'as cast' engine blocks and pistons etc, machine them to size, and sell them to an assembly plant, you are making components, as no further operations are required beyond fitting.

As far as I am aware, a component does not have to be a fully functional item. A crankshaft is simply one part of an engine transmission. If your company sold finished, balanced crankshafts, they would be entered onto IMDS a component.

NC

[Jim Wynne]

In Reply to Parent Post by qualcom6500

Hi All,

It is my fist time posting in the cove. Truly a great site!
I hope this is in the right forum category. Please let me know if it is not!!

My dilemma:

I work for a electroplating company in the US providing precious metal plating for the automotive, medical and aerospace industries.

When we receive parts they are come on a reel, un-stamped and un-formed. So we do not know the finish weight/mass of the part. This makes it that more difficult when entering information into the IMDS, where substances are primarily based on a per piece basis ( as far as I understand).

When our customer requires an MSDS ID/version # on the PSW I can provide this to them but should I:

* Create a component that have materials with individual weights?
* Create a semi-component with weights as a percentage?
* Create something entirely different from this?

I provided both of these options to my customer who said that they were unable to "apply" the materials to their parts.

Please if anyone has any words of advise I would truly appreciate it!!

Thanks!

Welcome to the Cove.

It seems like semi-component is the only way to do it that will make sense, as you have no way of knowing how your coating will contribute to the the mass of the end product. The semi-component should be based on weight per area, I would think. I don't know why your customer should be unable to apply a properly-executed semi-component MDS to their own.

[Jim Wynne]

In Reply to Parent Post by NumberCruncher

Hi qualcom6500

As I understand IMDS, the only way that you can "Create something entirely different from this" would be to sell your product as a material.
For example, you sell a specific alloys used for making pistons, engine blocks, etc. But you are not making anything out of it. All you are doing is providing the raw metal ingots that someone else casts into a component or semicomponent. This would have to be registered on IMDS as a material.

THe OP is doing electroplating of someone else's semi-complete parts that are furnished to him on reels. Something like this:

In Reply to Parent Post by NumberCruncher

A semicomponent is unfinished. So if you are making an engine component, which is then sold 'as is', but your customer needs to machine it further (drill bolt holes, machine to final tolerance etc) then you are making a semicomponent. In this case, you can enter your product on IMDS as a semicomponent since you do not know or have control over the final weight of the finished component which ends up in the car.
For example, If you are casting an engine block and selling 'as cast' you will be making a semicomponent as there is no way that it will be in tolerance for the pistons ect. Your customer must machine away the bores to the correct size, drill holes for all fittings...

No--in IMDSLand, a semi-component is a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk, and for which the supplier has no way of knowing how much of his product will be used in the finished part. Think of things like adhesives, fabric, and yes, electroplating, painting or other finishes.
There is much about terminology in the IMDS system that's not intuitive or sensible.

[NumberCruncher]

In Reply to Parent Post by Jim Wynne

No--in IMDSLand, a semi-component is a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk, and for which the supplier has no way of knowing how much of his product will be used in the finished part. Think of things like adhesives, fabric, and yes, electroplating, painting or other finishes.
There is much about terminology in the IMDS system that's not intuitive or sensible.

Hi Jim

I agree with almost everything that you have said, with one exception.
This from the IMDS public pages (my emphasis)


"If you are creating an MDS to represent something with layers (such as a plated metal, coated wire, textile or leather) or a product sold on a roll or bolt on in a container, you should be using a semi-component for your submission. Semi-components do not have a defined weight until used although you do enter a usage metric when you create the semi-component.

If you are creating an MDS to represent something used in whole numbers (e.g. a part in an assembly) that has a defined weight, then it should be represented by a component. (A component’s weight is given at the time of MDS creation and it remains constant throughout the manufacturing process)."



If you make a part finished component, which a subsequent customer then machines to final size, you are making a semicomponent. The company that I work for makes a component that eventually ends up as part of a car engine. The company sells as-cast. We have no way of knowing exactly how much material will be removed by the customers. The actual amount removed varies depending on which customer and which final product. I estimate between 5% to 20% of the metal is removed from the cast parts before they become part of a final assembly.

This counts as a semicomponent as Semi-components do not have a defined weight until used. It certainly cannot count as a component as "A component’s weight is given at the time of MDS creation and it remains constant throughout the manufacturing process". Machining 5-20% of the material away is most definitely not constant weight throughout the manufacturing process!

Nice photo by the way. I don't know what it's used for, but it looks painful.

NC

[Jim Wynne]

In Reply to Parent Post by NumberCruncher

Hi Jim

I agree with almost everything that you have said, with one exception.
This from the IMDS public pages (my emphasis)


"If you are creating an MDS to represent something with layers (such as a plated metal, coated wire, textile or leather) or a product sold on a roll or bolt on in a container, you should be using a semi-component for your submission. Semi-components do not have a defined weight until used although you do enter a usage metric when you create the semi-component.

If you are creating an MDS to represent something used in whole numbers (e.g. a part in an assembly) that has a defined weight, then it should be represented by a component. (A component’s weight is given at the time of MDS creation and it remains constant throughout the manufacturing process)."



If you make a part finished component, which a subsequent customer then machines to final size, you are making a semicomponent. The company that I work for makes a component that eventually ends up as part of a car engine. The company sells as-cast. We have no way of knowing exactly how much material will be removed by the customers. The actual amount removed varies depending on which customer and which final product. I estimate between 5% to 20% of the metal is removed from the cast parts before they become part of a final assembly.

This counts as a semicomponent as Semi-components do not have a defined weight until used. It certainly cannot count as a component as "A component’s weight is given at the time of MDS creation and it remains constant throughout the manufacturing process". Machining 5-20% of the material away is most definitely not constant weight throughout the manufacturing process!

Nice photo by the way. I don't know what it's used for, but it looks painful.

NC

I think I missed the part you disagreed with.

[NumberCruncher]

Hi Jim

What we've got here is failure to communicate. [Cool Hand Luke, also quoted by Guns n Roses in "Civil War"]

My original post, which you quoted, was:

"A semicomponent is unfinished. So if you are making an engine component, which is then sold 'as is', but your customer needs to machine it further (drill bolt holes, machine to final tolerance etc) then you are making a semicomponent. ..." etc.

Your response to this was:

"No--in IMDSLand, a semi-component is a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk, and for which the supplier has no way of knowing how much of his product will be used in the finished part. Think of things like adhesives, fabric, and yes, electroplating, painting or other finishes.
There is much about terminology in the IMDS system that's not intuitive or sensible."

I interpret this as implying that:
1) you disagree with the assertion that a semicomponent is unfinished. i.e. a part manufactured item requiring further machining.
2) Your interpretation of a semicomponent is therefore exclusively a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk.

NC

[Jim Wynne]

In Reply to Parent Post by NumberCruncher

Hi Jim

What we've got here is failure to communicate. [Cool Hand Luke, also quoted by Guns n Roses in "Civil War"]

My original post, which you quoted, was:

"A semicomponent is unfinished. So if you are making an engine component, which is then sold 'as is', but your customer needs to machine it further (drill bolt holes, machine to final tolerance etc) then you are making a semicomponent. ..." etc.

Your response to this was:

"No--in IMDSLand, a semi-component is a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk, and for which the supplier has no way of knowing how much of his product will be used in the finished part. Think of things like adhesives, fabric, and yes, electroplating, painting or other finishes.
There is much about terminology in the IMDS system that's not intuitive or sensible."

I interpret this as implying that:
1) you disagree with the assertion that a semicomponent is unfinished. i.e. a part manufactured item requiring further machining.
2) Your interpretation of a semicomponent is therefore exclusively a thing that is supplied to a customer in bulk.

NC

I think we were perhaps talking past each other a bit, and I hadn't stopped to consider a case like yours, even though I dealt with similar situations in castings (even castings painted before machining) from the customer end for a long time. I think we're in agreement that the OP is dealing with a semi-component.