One Stop Shopping - "GUARANTEED Certification for Nevada Businesses"

[Marc]

Subject: COMMENT: Caveat Emptor /Taormina
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:31:46 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion

Subject: COMMENT: Caveat Emptor /Taormina

One of my clients gave me a broadcast FAX they received last week. I will not mention either company, but here is some of the content of the FAX.

"ISO 9000, QS 9000, ISO 14000, AS9000, CE MARKING, EN 46000, ISO 25, TickIT XYZ Company (ISO 9002 Certified Company with zero non-conformities) Guaranteed Completion IN AS LITTLE AS 3 MONTHS for Nevada Companies"

"GUARANTEED Certification for Nevada Businesses"

"We are certified and we get you certified in as little as 3 months. We can also help you maintain your present registration."

"Please notice our RAB/IRCA/TicKT approved lead auditor training."

Wow, one stop shopping! The ad did beg a few questions in my mind:

1. How can anyone guarantee certification without having examined the quality management system in question and gained resource commitment from those who operate the business?

2. How can anyone put a 3 month window on certification? Even with a compliant QMS, it takes about that long to develop a history of internal audits and corrective/preventive action.

3. Did I miss something or has the ethical boundary between consulting and certification been revoked?

4. I wonder what they mean by "helping you keep your present registration?" Isn't that done through walking the talk and continuous improvement?

I am surprised the ad did not guarantee compliance to ISO 9000-2000.

Those of you who are just starting the certification journey, please beware of these types of come-on's and misleading advertising. Ethical consultants do not perform certification audits and ethical registrars do not consult. While a number of registrars provide training, even this is borderline of ethical boundaries. No ethical registrar that is actually evaluating the effectiveness of your QMS is going to guarantee results. No ethical consultant is going to guarantee three month certification unless you give them unlimited funds and the company gives the consultant a huge resource commitment.

We may be a little behind the curve in Nevada (only 54 ISO 9000 certificates in the state, so far), but give me a break!

Caveat emptor!

Tom Taormina

[Marc]

Subject: Re: Caveat Emptor /Naish
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:48:40 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion <JENNEJOHNN@UWSTOUT.EDU>

From: PNaish@aol.com
Subject: RE: Caveat Emptor /Naish

Tom,

Thanks for the comment. I have seen the same information other places and have even gotten one myself. Interesting how they could guarantee that we would be registered in 3 months when they didn't even know what we do or how many people. I can guarantee if we did not already have a fully documented quality system that is fully operational I would not have the man power much less the money to make it in 3 months.

The second part about the fine line is also interesting because the letter we got was from a registrar who does lead assessor training, consulting, and of course registration. Seems like a pretty big conflict of interest there to be doing all the same.

While we are on buyer beware: I was asked by someone who heard about us if we had a fully developed document package that they could just take and use. There is NO package that I know of that any company can just take and use. The system needs to be YOU and needs to be documented for how you are doing business. So buyer beware of the can - it might just be a can of worms.

Phyllis

[barb butrym]

we have all seen the like...and it is a Bull S**t marketing ploy. Unfortunately too many fall victim, and I have had work come my way because of them. When questioned, all the guarantee is they stay until you get it....Dahhh ...doesn't every consultant worth any salt? There are "fastrack" implementations happenning out there, due to customer demand for contract deadlines etc...that allow for less history available, but a 3 month surveillance visit instead of 6 months...amounts to a more comprehensive pre-ssessment visit, with a temporary registration confidence is there that the company do well on teh 3 month return. A money maker for the registrar, and makes teh customer happy. Some are ok, some not..its registrar dependant...good thing it doesn't happen too often, or does it? Ihave seen very little, but looks like this guy pushes it. sometimes theguarantee is just that the consultant is damn good and knows his registrar......pretty smug if you ask me. i work closely with my registrars, but would never offer a guarantee, although i am confident in my work and teh professionalism of my auditors. When pushed i will'toot my horn' on my successes..... But image is everything and i stay clear of the line....to keep it from becoming a fine line. I am not defending the advert, just in a generous mood today, and adding insight. (benefit of the doubt.....LOL)

[Kevin Mader]

I have to agree with you Barb. A 90-day claim (or whatever) is a marketing ploy. Just tell the potential client what they want to hear, lock in their business. If it takes longer (much longer), no matter, you've got the hook set. Perhaps a give back of some set % if you don't make the deadline, but anyway you dress it, they are locked in.

Staying away from the line is also good advice. Nothing stinks worse than when integrity is compromised. Everyone loses in this scenario, eventually anyway.

Regards,

Kevin

I'm surprized that there hasn't been more feedback on this thread. I looked over one site - I forget which is was, but it was in Arizona - a company was offering a guarantee. But when you really took a good look at the terms - hell, I'd guarantee successful registration with all the disclaimers they had such as 'use our registrar, purchase training they believe is appropriate, etc., etc. They didn't have a guaranteed time frame, though, if I remember correctly.

The other peeve I have is the 'implementers' and 'experts' like those who buy Strider International's 'program' who have no background at all in the 'trenches'. One fella was giving courses on ISO9001 implementation - he had not gone through even 1 implementation. Makes one wonder. But then again, Alex Chong did that with Plexus and QS9000, got GM's buy in and EVENTUALLY came up with a reasonable program.

Generally it's not how good your program is - it's who you know and what money can be had.

[Marc]

Another view:

Subject: Re: Caveat Emptor /Taormina/Paris
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:40:49 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion <JENNEJOHNN@UWSTOUT.EDU>

From: Christopher Paris <cparis@asqnet.org>
Subject: Re: Caveat Emptor /Taormina/Paris

>2. How can anyone put a 3 month window on certification? Even with a
>compliant QMS, it takes about that long to develop a history of internal
>audits and corrective/preventive action.

>No ethical
>consultant is going to guarantee three month certification unless you give
>them unlimited funds and the company gives the consultant a huge resource
>commitment.

This is not always the case. I am marketing an "8-week" certification program that takes certain companies through the process from scratch to registration with 40 days of on-site work. The first two companies who have opted for this intense program have both passed their registration audits --- using registrars of their choosing, I might add.

I don't market my company as "guaranteeing" certification; quite the opposite, I make lots of references in all my documentation and advertising that "certification is not guaranteed." I also limit WHO I consider eligible for the 8-week implementation by performing a free gap analysis audit and using those results to determine eligibility, in addition to considering the obvious factors of company size, industry, etc. I also don't require "unlimited funds" nor a "huge resource commitment." All I ask is access to a photocopier, some reams of paper and a corner to set up my laptop and laser printer. And I've done some research recently and found my rates were almost half of what one of those ultra-big "we guarantee certification" guys is charging! (Maybe I need a raise?) BUT, again, I also don't "guarantee" anything. And to be honest, I think clients prefer honesty to the barker-style howling of those other guys.

One of the problems, as you mention, is developing a "history" within that small time frame, whether its internal audits, CARs, management review, or other things. You're right, but there are ways to address this even within an eight week implementation (never mind three months). You have to really immerse the company very quickly ("bombard" might be a better term!) and establish evidence for the registrar that meaningful use of the QMS has been going on for X amount of time and eliminate any doubt that it will continue into the future. If, for example, you don't accomplish a full internal audit cycle of all 20 elements, you may still pass registration if you can produce a meaningful audit schedule that shows you will complete the cycle by the surveillance audit.

Short implementation times are not impossible, but rely heavily on the old "management commitment" requirement. I think a lot of people think a company that has undergone a rapid implementation has "bought" its certificate --- and the companies offering "guaranteed certification" who, if you read the fine print, actually own the registrar as well as the consulting firm, are the ones propagating this by their actions. However, a seriously committed company, within certain limits, CAN implement a lasting, value-added QMS within a few months.

Christopher Paris

[barb butrym]

its much too hot a day to argue.....everything works for SOMEBODY...a relationship with a client is like a marriage...so much goes into the decision...ya gotta think on the same line, and ya gotta have the same ethics..there has to be a bit of chemistry........